How do sim results work in SKP vs SKP

[Carther]

I know the cpu uses team SIM ratings to help determine skip game results, but what else is used? Are player SIM ratings used? Is it mostly random, does anyone know how this works?

[DFM]

http://tecmobowl.org/topic/12519-tsb-sim-locations-and-values/

[Carther]

Thanks Dave, I  have seen that and I know that those are used to determine player stats etc during the skip games.  

 

I guess I should clarify.  

 

How is the score of the skp games determined.  Do player ratings have anything to do with it or does the overall team sim ratings only affect it?

 

I have searched for information on this but have not found any.

[buck]

this might not be exactly what you're looking for, but it's something I'm sure you'd like to see.  (in that jstout document that I found - and then MGK typed up, you can see SIM MODIFIERS.)

 

I call them SIM SCALES.

 

There are PASSING, RUSHING, and DEFENSE (as far as I know).  I have tweaked them for various roms (like street and some vintage roms) I've made to adjust the scoring but mostly the yardage totals and that sort of thing.  There is still a lot to be experimented with.

 

passing is at x180c3, 16 bytes

 

rushing is at x180b3, 16 bytes

 

defense is at x180d3, 16 bytes

Edited October 29, 2015 by buck

[bruddog]

I understand what you are talking about carther but it hasn't been totally deconstructed to the very lowest level.

On the high level there is some good info as buck says.

[Martin]

this might not be exactly what you're looking for, but it's something I'm sure you'd like to see.  (in that jstout document that I found - and then MGK typed up, you can see SIM MODIFIERS.)

 

I call them SIM SCALES.

 

There are PASSING, RUSHING, and DEFENSE (as far as I know).  I have tweaked them for various roms (like street and some vintage roms) I've made to adjust the scoring but mostly the yardage totals and that sort of thing.  There is still a lot to be experimented with.

 

passing is at x180c3, 16 bytes

 

rushing is at x180b3, 16 bytes

 

defense is at x180d3, 16 bytes

 

This is great! Been looking for it for awhile.

 

EDIT: Messed around with it a bit. Set all 16 bytes to either 00 or FF, and then simmed a season just to see what happened.

0x180b3 - rushing & returns

0x180c3 - pass offense (passing, ints, sacks)

0x180d3 - run defense

0x180e3 - pass defense (passing, ints, sacks)

0x180f3 - kickers

0x18103 - punters

Edited October 30, 2015 by Martin

[Martin]

Still looking for the sim scales for receiving yardage. Is that location known? Trying to figure out how the kick and punt return sim work, as well. Can't see it, yet.

[Martin]

Sorry for spamming, but... Seems like what TSBToolSupreme labels SIM OFFENSE actually is RUN DEFENSE!

 

I 00:ed Bills "SIM OFFENSE" and FF:ed every one elses. Bills got about 2600 yards against in rushing, the second worst run defense got about 900 and the best around 500. The difference there is caused by pass-rush-ratio, probably.

 

My theory is that SIM OFFENSE is RUN DEFENSE and that SIM DEFENSE actually is PASS DEFENSE.

 

EDIT: I'll keep testing and start a new thread about this later.

 

EDIT 2: I can confirm this. "Team sim offense" is run defense, and "Team sim defense" is pass defense.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Martin

[buck]

Sorry for spamming, but... Seems like what TSBToolSupreme labels SIM OFFENSE actually is RUN DEFENSE!

 

I 00:ed Bills "SIM OFFENSE" and FF:ed every one elses. Bills got about 2600 yards against in rushing, the second worst run defense got about 900 and the best around 500. The difference there is caused by pass-rush-ratio, probably.

 

My theory is that SIM OFFENSE is RUN DEFENSE and that SIM DEFENSE actually is PASS DEFENSE.

 

EDIT: I'll keep testing and start a new thread about this later.

 

EDIT 2: I can confirm this. "Team sim offense" is run defense, and "Team sim defense" is pass defense.

 

good work.  so you are saying that the "two numbers" that you enter in TSBTOOL for team SIM values actually get stored somewhere and point to these lists, for each team?  

 

does that mean that each team can have SIM values for all of these lists you found (that would be 6 values instead of 2) ???!!!

 

but how about just keep the info in this thread that's already booming?

Edited October 30, 2015 by buck

[Martin]

Sure, let's keep it here.

 

First off, I don't get the mechanics behind it.

 

I believe that, for passing, the game puts QB simPASS + receiver simCATCH (these values might come from the scale at 0x180c3) against the, as TSBTool labels it, "Defense sim"-value (this scale is at 0x180e3) and this somehow results in a completion, interception, dropped pass, sack, whatever.

 

Still not sure about the 3rd sim value for RB/WR/TE's, it's supposed to be yards/reception. It didn't seem to be affected by the scales posted above, when I messed around with extreme values, 00's and FF's.

 

For running backs, it seems like RB simRUSH value (scale at 0x180b3) goes against the, as TSBTool labels it, "Offense sim"-value (scale at 0x180d3), and decides the average yardage. I believe that this actually is a run defense value. So two RBs with the same simRUSH will get different average yardage, based on the opposing teams "Offense sim"/run defense-value.

 

Kickers and punters just got one sim value, and the scales for these are the ones at 0x180f3 and 0x18103.

 

 

I.e. there is no TEAM OFFENSE SIM value, just individual sim values on offense vs. TEAM DEFENSE SIM, divided into RUN DEFENSE and PASS DEFENSE. These are labeled "Offense sim" and "Defense sim" in TSBToolSupreme.

[buck]

 

 

I.e. there is no TEAM OFFENSE SIM value, just individual sim values on offense vs. TEAM DEFENSE SIM, divided into RUN DEFENSE and PASS DEFENSE. These are labeled "Offense sim" and "Defense sim" in TSBToolSupreme.

 

yeah, I'm not worried about individual sim stuff right now.  I just want to get to the bottom of the various Team SIM stuff.  

 

like, is it possible to assign all the sim values that you found (just in hex, ignoring TOOL) for each team?

Edited October 30, 2015 by buck

[bruddog]

The way I've had it listed for the 28 team rom for a long time 

 

0X180A3: SIM PASSING (3 BYTES EACH) 

0x180B3 : SIM RUSHING

0x180C3 : SIM RECEIVING

0x180D3:  SIM DEFENSE

0x180E3:  SIM OFFENSE

0x180F3:  SIM KICKING

0x18103:  SIM PUNTING

0x18113:  SIM POCKET (ONLY 4 BYTES LONG)

0x18117:  SIM RECEPTION

 

 

0x18137:  TEAM SIM POINTERS

 

0x18163:  START OF BUFFALO SIM VALUES

0x18193:  START OF INDY  SIM VALUES

 

ADD 0X30 FOR NEXT TEAM...

[buck]

 

0X180A3: SIM PASSING (3 BYTES EACH) 

0x180B3 : SIM RUSHING

0x180C3 : SIM RECEIVING

0x180D3:  SIM DEFENSE

0x180E3:  SIM OFFENSE

0x180F3:  SIM KICKING

0x18103:  SIM PUNTING

0x18113:  SIM POCKET (ONLY 4 BYTES LONG)

0x18117:  SIM RECEPTION

 

 

these are where players "individual sim" values (as assigned in TSB TOOL, for example) point to, right?

 

which ones are for "team only"?

 

are there more "team sim" values that can be assigned for each team than TSB TOOL allows?

Edited October 30, 2015 by buck

[Martin]

If I'm right there are only "team only" SIM values for defense. Offense is just the sum of individual SIM.

 

The stuff at 0x180e3 is the scales for run defense, and at 0x180d3 pass defense.

[buck]

Offense is just the sum of individual SIM.

 

 

 

I don't know about that.

 

see:

 

http://tecmobowl.org/topic/10512-applying-sim-data/

[Martin]

I have read that thread.

 

Changing the "Team SIM offense" value doesn't affect offensive production at all. It is run defense. Been simming seasons for hours, testing different values. There's a notable difference, even without altering the SIM scales. I'm sure about this.

[Martin]

Try SET(0x180d3, 0xffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff)

 

This would put all "SIM OFFENSE" values at max. If it affected offensive production you would get inflated stats, right?

The only thing that happens? Lower rushing totals.

This would indicate that "SIM OFFENSE" actually is RUN DEFENSE.

[buck]

Try SET(0x180d3, 0xffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff)

 

This would put all "SIM OFFENSE" values at max. If it affected offensive production you would get inflated stats, right?

The only thing that happens? Lower rushing totals.

This would indicate that "SIM OFFENSE" actually is RUN DEFENSE.

 

no, that would merely put SIM DEFENSE at max, no matter what each team's value is.

 

try to leave everything the same but tweak the team sim 0xFF values in TOOL.

[Martin]

OG Rom, using TOOL I changed Colts Offense Sim to 15. All other teams Offense Sim to 0. Nothing else changed.

Then I simmed a season. Almost last in offense, but first in run defense.

 

[Carther]

OG Rom, using TOOL I changed Colts Offense Sim to 15. All other teams Offense Sim to 0. Nothing else changed.

Then I simmed a season. Almost last in offense, but first in run defense.

 

OG Rom.jpg

 

The data supports this.   When I use the total sim offense +sim defense from the original nes rom and rank from 1 to 28 and then take the run def rank + pass def rank from the 1990 season from Pro-football-reference and rank 1-28 and compare the two it supports this.

 

Wow the Bills were over-rated and the Steelers under-rated and the Chargers totally dissed on the original cart but everyone else looks good.

 

 

 

tsbdefrankchart.xls

Edited October 30, 2015 by Carther

[Martin]

In light of this, opponent-adjusted stats, like Football Outsiders DVOA gets even more useful.

 

I made a spreadsheet, and do like the SIM results.

(tsb90) sim team defense.xlsx

[bruddog]

sim offense and sim defense I think only really effect the final score outcomes. 

 

 

Also 

Tecmo actually simulates time for SKP mode so changing the simulated qtr length also   total score as well as the stats

0x1703C = default =0x06
0x17F0D = default =0x06

[Martin]

I have been simming season all night, without altering any SIM scales. Just using TSBToolSupreme, treating the TEAM SIM values as RUN DEFENSE and PASS DEFENSE. And I'm basing my SIM values on stats, using the spreadsheet above, so no tweaking of values to get results to support my theory.

 

I get much better results than before. There is a noticable difference. And, looking at Carther's post, this does not clash with the OG ROM either.

 

To me there is no question about it:

 

There is no TEAM OFFENSE SIM value, just individual sim values on offense vs. TEAM DEFENSE SIM, divided into RUN DEFENSE and PASS DEFENSE. These are - incorrectly - labeled "Offense sim" and "Defense sim" in TSBToolSupreme.

[bruddog]

Like i said the team offense and team defense sim values effect the total points scored and thus who ends up winning and losing

[Martin]

I won't argue this, since I'm not even close to the hacking skills some of you guys display. Still not convinced, though. I think the Colts experiment I did at least indicate that it's worth further digging. I keep testing and get the results I expect... And it wouldn't be the first time stuff in TSBToolSupreme was found to be misslabeled, right?

 

By the way...

 

What's going on at 0x180a3? That's the only location - of the ones listed above - that isn't somewhat linear:

 

 

64 1A 80 40 4D 66 33 80 4D 26 B3 26 1F E6 0A 0D

 

SIM PASSING, how?

 

I've found that simPASS for QB's draw from the scale at 0x180c3, same as simCATCH for RB/WR/TE. On a ROM of mine where just one QB were rated 10 for simPASS, and no player had a 10 simCATCH I 00:ed the corresponding value, and that QB had much worse stats than usual in a simmed season. Messing with the 0x180a3-stuff affects the passing, though. Just not sure in what way, and how it works.