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HDTV input lag java program


bruddog

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This is a JAVE little tecmo themed program I whipped up that is my attempt to recreate guitar heros lag tool to give you an idea of how much total lag is coming from your


 


controller+OS + monitor/HDTV


 


 


This works like my condition checker in that you should be able to double click it assuming you have the java runtime installed an associated with jar files.


 


inputlag_tester_tecmo.zip


 


STEPS.


 


1. Double click to open


2. You should get a crude 800 x 600 field


3. Press S to start


4. You'll likely want to press the down arrow once to slow down the animation by half


5. Press "A" on your keyboard as the tecmo guy crosses the red midfield stripe. Wait until the red strips turns to yellow. If you press early your press won't count. It keeps a running total of the average delay 


6. Press C to clear the results and start fresh.


 


 


P will pause the program.  


 


Not sure how accurate this is but some quick tests make me think its reasonable.


 


This is a ROUGH guideline


0-50=  likely won't notice difference between this and console


50-75= noticeable but possibly acceptable 


75-100= ikely not acceptable for a tourney setting


100-125= You will notice this shiz


150+= like playing on nesticle on vframe 11 

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  • 1 year later...

this is a great tool, bru... thanks.

 

on my TV (connected to CPU via HDMI) with game mode off: ~90

TV with game mode on: ~75

desktop monitor via long VGA cable (w/ security camera on in desktop window): ~45

desktop monitor (security camera off): ~30

 

the first time i tried it, my numbers were much higher than above.... but the 2nd (and beyond) they stabilized, not sure why probably my CPU.

 

however, i can most definitely feel the difference between my desktop and console in all situations..... others like kamp claim they cant really feel the difference, but my freedom to cut and juke on the console is always snappier than playing offline nestopia, and perhaps i am more sensitive to this, and benefitted by it, because of my lifelong dedication to the offset-I rushing attack..... I doubt it, but I wonder if I can fire this up on my Everdrive cart and test my CRT-TVs, that would be the ultimate as a tourney organizer.

 

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1 hour ago, meat said:

You can also use 240p test suite.

Thanks meat I didn't know that existed. I swear I looked around for something like that.  Do you know if it was created fairly recently?

 

Here is the rom you can load on to a cart for testing the CRT's @manyo360. Here is the wiki page for it

 

http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/240p_test_suite

 

240pee.nes

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Most sub 50" HDTV displays(especially computer monitors) do not produce any significant input lag if the signal is fed captured from a digital source.  The problem typically lies with the integrated composite input on the display, and it's shoddy up-scaling technology, converting analog to digital on the fly.  The use of a dedicated hardware upscaler can produce a great result that can be played on.

 

There are plenty of dedicated upscalers out there, with the best being the xRGB mini(Framemeister).  Here's a link to a poor man's upscaler, which requires no modification to your consoles.  http://www.monoprice.com/Product?p_id=9994&gclid=Cj0KEQiA_fy0BRCwiLaQ5-iFgpwBEiQA884sOTiiuU7QCdvBiVvSdiwqJ1DsEEBG9TqYMovYQiRfryQaAuR-8P8HAQ

 

 

To further improve upon NES hardware image quality, and other retro consoles, this series by My Life In Gaming is a great watch.  Here's the intro video to the process, and I'd encourage any retro enthusiast to have a looksy, as CRT displays won't last a lifetime.

 

 

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1 hour ago, bruddog said:

Rob some other options are going to be kevtris's hdmi mod kit. 0 frames of lag. Or bunny boys redesigned nes. 

 

 

In my dreams for sure.  It's hard to throw $200 on top of a 30 year old console, but it's so pretty!

 

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  • 9 months later...
On 11/18/2016 at 8:25 AM, bruddog said:

@manyo360 @davefmurray try the 240 test suite rom. I average a bit over 1 frame on my AVS + plasma in game mode with all of the digital processing off on the manual lag test which isn't a perfect test. It depends a bit on your rythm reflexes. I turn random off and the audio and both moving boxes on. 

 

alright, finally got around to testing my AVS... I used the 240 PEE rom, the lag test with same options as you and on my big screen Vizio LED tv, after turning on game mode and fixing every other setting I could find, I was averaging ~3 frames lag... on a small and cheap Hisense flat screen, I averaged ~1 frame lag..... on my CRT-tv (using a top loader, but same flash cart and controller), my lag was consistently less than 1, was really more like zero, it took FOREVER to finish the test on that tv compared to the others, I was killing it........ so, in conclusion, I think it's my rather old Vizio tv, and next time I go to get a newer one I'll be certain to figure out its abilities to eliminate lag and so forth........ I will also be testing on other TVs outside of my home in the future..... thanks again, bru

 

EDIT: here is a good site for more info on specific TVs and lag in general... http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

 

Edited by manYo
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Cool. Sounds like it was the TV more than the AVS. How did tecmo feel on the 1 frame TV or did you geta chance? 

 

I've seen those sites but good to post it. My 8? year old plasma is too old for those tests but it does pretty well in my unscientific testing. I dont have a crt for comparison. 

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3 hours ago, bruddog said:

Cool. Sounds like it was the TV more than the AVS. How did tecmo feel on the 1 frame TV or did you geta chance? 

 

I've seen those sites but good to post it. My 8? year old plasma is too old for those tests but it does pretty well in my unscientific testing. I dont have a crt for comparison. 

 

the 1-frame lag is definitely doable, however that tv in my house is kind of small and not easily accessible, so will look to add another low-lag hdtv down the road....... but even then, there is nothing like the lightning quick response of a crt-tv, it's like a drug when it comes to playing tecmo, I get a cheap thrill on the team select screen when the cursor starts zipping around seemingly at the speed of my thoughts...... will probably stick with zelda and other games on the AVS, but tecmo is strictly CRT for now.

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3 hours ago, manyo360 said:

 

the 1-frame lag is definitely doable, however that tv in my house is kind of small and not easily accessible, so will look to add another low-lag hdtv down the road....... but even then, there is nothing like the lightning quick response of a crt-tv, it's like a drug when it comes to playing tecmo, I get a cheap thrill on the team select screen when the cursor starts zipping around seemingly at the speed of my thoughts...... will probably stick with zelda and other games on the AVS, but tecmo is strictly CRT for now.

 

UPDATE: after I messed with a few more settings on my cheap Hisense tv, I actually ran a ZERO on the lag test... not sure I really believe that, as I definitely detect a touch of lag still, but..... BIG success on the AVS now, with the right TV I am loving it.

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@manyo360 the lag program isn't perfect as you will instinctively adapt a little bit to the lag w but it should be pretty close. From the wiki

 

" Of course the evaluation is dependent on reflexes and/or rhythm more than anything. The visual and audio cues are the more revealing aspects which the user should consider, of course the interactive factor can give an experienced player the hang of the system when testing it via different connections. Since a frame is around 16 ms (1000/60), that value must be considered the general error when using the test results"

 

 

The NES only checks the input once per frame at least in most games hence why that is your general error margin.  You could press right after the input is checked and it will be a whole frame (~16ms) before it gets checked and processed. 

 

The test is a little problematic in that it throws away early presses when I think it should average them in the results though i guess you could do it manually. 

 

And two I don't think it should tell you how far off you are as your brain manually adjusts to try and get 0. 

 

You can also try my tecmo themed lag test rom. It may not be as accurate as the other program. The idea is to press A at the location shown below or ever so slightly before.

 

The player scrolls across the screen repeatedly. I take the frame # at which the the player will be at that location and subtract it from the frame number where the a button is pressed and take the absolute value of that number. 

 

Again its more useful with a CRT as a reference. If you average say 2  over a lot of samples on the CRT and 4  over a lot of samples on the AVS its likely that the AVS is 2 frames worse. 

 

Just start a game with any teams and after the coin toss you will get the scrolling player. PRessing A will update the minutes in the clock with how many frames you were off.

 

The picture is from a previous press hence why it says 2. 
 

lag_test.nes

 

tecmo_lag_tester.jpg

 

 

 

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my results:

  • CRT: 4.7
  • HISENSE: 1.6
  • VIZIO: 0.8

By the numbers, it's the inverse of reality... but since I was pretty good at waiting until the dude straddled the 50 in each test, I'm thinking the target in your test was actually around 5 frames past what I thought it was, since the relative lag between each screen is roughly true.  I was unable to test my computer because my controller adapter is nowhere to be found.

 

I've actually become pretty good now at going to the team data screen and cycling through the teams and judging the lag based on the button response..... would love for that to be my next test, a "blind" lag test of a human (me), let's call it The Lag Test Challenge.

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  • 1 month later...

I recently joined a CRT collector group on Facebook, and the general consensus I've seen is that even when HDMI modded NES or Retrousb AVS via HDMI connected to high end gaming monitors with less than 1ms input lag and features like gsync, there is still a noticeable delay, albeit minimal when compared side by side to an analog powered CRT.

 

The thing about digital is that it essentially means, information has to be processed by your display in order to render it.  Even if it's lighting fast, there is still a delay created by said processing.  This is why we see additional lag introduced by emulators, it's another layer of processing.

 

I could be wrong here, but it's really the kicking game that seems to be the most obvious game play mechanic affected by all of this.  Perhaps a rom hack that changed how the kickoff and punt meters were treated, such as changing the location of the arrow, or meter to be one frame behind the indicator.  I know this would create a whole new challenge on deployment of all of this, but it could be worth exploring as CRT's are a dying resource.  Bruddog is that even possible?

 

Who knows what the future will bring with digital technology.  For now I'm sticking with CRT's as long as I have enough of them, and can still get them.

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