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New Base NES ROM (32-Team Original TSB Gameplay)


GameplayLoop

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You could probably hack the shit out of a ROM and release it as an official ROM. I bet all of those 35K ppl that downloaded it 1) wont notice and 2) wont care. The casual Tecmo player is looking for a roster update. Most people probably dont even realize what each attribute does.

 

Couldn't disagree more. See above post.

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These were voted on and deemed the only hacks fit for a "vanilla" ROM and are featured in the 2013 release.


 


Adjustable quarter length 


Playbook editing in-game

Player 2 attributes now display correctly 

Half time stats

Passing Accuracy now works.  Passing Accuracy determines if a pass will be completed.  Pass Control determines if the ball will be on target

Quickness now works.  This will be the max speed of a defender if they pick up a fumble or make an interception

 

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ok, I remember the quickness (coverage) hack, now.  that's not a bad idea, then.  I could see the majority of defenders having "very similar" coverage/int attributes, though.


 


I haven't heard of your PA hack, that sounds like a decent idea, too. (where is this documented?)


 


I also like the "quickness as turnover speed", too - because so many points come from returned ints and stuff these days - but that's not how 91 TSB plays!


 


but Ultimately, I believe I am persuaded to not use any "hacks" except player 2 condition, for a true "vanilla" rom.


Edited by buck
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Couldn't disagree more. See above post.

Sorry, Totally didn't realize you already had this debate.  Was checking from my iphone at work. 

But seriously, polls schmolls.  I bet if one of the options was "I don't care and wouldn't even realize which hacks were included" it would have got 97% of the vote. 

I'm basing my opinion on the past 6 years of reading peoples posts on this board.  I really doubt most would notice the hacks (aside from a difficult HP hack). 

 

 

but the thing is to make an "honest" vanilla rom.  I think more people care about it being minimally hacked than you think.

True...maybe they care.  Or at least say they care.  But I still believe most wouldn't notice.

 

 

remember fatcheerleader?

Yes.  We exchange texts about Tecmo & Sports almost daily.  He's still a Romo fan.  I think it's turning him gay.

 

 

 

But anyways...I'm going to bow out of this one.  Vanilla ROMs are just blah to me.  I'm more about creating more difficult (and realistic) ROMs rather than running up stats.  I get wanting to please the masses and will always download, support and advertise anything put out by this site.

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Bruddog

Honestly the facebook/social media masses should be polled.

This is not a good idea. Yes, a lot of why a new base vanilla ROM is being created is specifically for the Facebook users of the world, but they have little basis to compare one concept to the next about what should be added, or what shouldn't. Most of this ROM stuff is semi-new to them, and certainly unexplored as to the differences of whether this-or-that hack is a good or bad idea to include or disclude.

 

Bruddog

I honestly don't think the fact that it was a vanilla release had much effect on the 35k downloads.

Again, gotta disagree. We have a forum here with a ton of custom ROMs that were listed right on the home page. Most of them are side-tracked. Downloaders go right for the game that is advertised as the game they know best--something that resembles as closely as possible the original TSB in play-style.

 

Bruddog

MGK - I guess the playbook and time hack is OK because you don't have to use it in the game if you don't want to. Though I think actually using

it is a fairly large departure from the original gameplay.

Totally agree.

 

Dave

Of course this idea is targeting those who don't want hacks in their ROMs. That is what this thread is about.

^ This.

 

Dave

The biggest complaints that were given about 2012 had to do with the grapple hack and the FG distance.

^ This.

 

Buck

This is getting too complicated.

^ This. The more difficult thread to answer should be the attempt at a hacked-filled base ROM. This thread is specifically about creating a new vanilla version as a BASE, which as was referenced, Buck had already begun to do in 2011.

 

Buck

0. 32 team, god yes. there is a SIM/SKP bug for the NFC West. the "menu" where you can change the quarter length (and nothing else) - rename this to "clock" or something like that and "blank out" all of the other unnecessary text on that screen ("weather" = remove) so as to not confuse. in-game playbook adjust.
 
^ This.

Buck

1. graphics yes, the best and most recent helmets and colors. NO to any other major graphical changes, other than year numbers and perhaps the opening screen animations. yes, modern "proads" NFL Logo, (including AFC/NFC logos).

^ This.

 

Bruddog

I dont see how making passing ability do something isnt the same in terms of how the game plays as making quickness determine how often a db breaks up a pass.

I could agree with this. But Buck's later statement about it not being clear, I also agree with. PC and PA is terminology in the game that we always thought stood for something that turned out not to be the case. So, it was then changed to actually reflect what we always thought it was, or close to it. Quickness means nothing. Unless we redefine it now and for forever. I'm open to doing that. And I'm sure, at this point, we could even convince newbies that it has always been the case. But we'd have to make some sort of declaration. I'm not sure if that's possible, but I'm open to giving it a try. Clearly, Bruddog has used the Quickness variable in a very clever way.

 

Dave

I say we use Buck's purist ROM.

 

^ This. I definitely believe it's the best place to start.
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Bodom

You could probably hack the shit out of a ROM and release it as an official ROM. I bet all of those 35K ppl that downloaded it 1) wont notice and 2) wont care.

I don't believe this is true. MANY people realized there was something up with the Grapple Hack of the 2012 release. That was partly my attempt to test the waters and see how many gameplay changes I could fit into a general release unnoticed. It didn't fly.

My Final Thoughts About PA/PC in this Vanilla ROM:

When we were kids (hell, when we were older even) we thought these two variables meant something. Turned out they didn't. I'm not opposed to making them mean something, BUT, if this is truly a BASE rom, I'm not opposed to leaving them as original TSB left them, and allowing users to make the PA/PC switch themselves eventually, when they understand how to / if they decide they want to--or install a newer (fancier?) hack like Bruddog has made that also utilizes the Quickness variable on defense. If debate comes from this, and if opinions are split, my vote is to default to "no," because the intention is to make the vanilla ROM, indeed, vanilla.

What this does mean to me, is that Bruddog's newer and fancier way of judging completions / incompletions should be certainly considered for the other, HACK-centric ROM base. That ROM is about furthering the detail in the game, and creating more dynamics to the gameplay that generate a more realism / variable-based experience.

In Response to Bruddog's Lengthy Hack Explanation:

Without quoting everything, Bruddog followed up in explaining his hack and the logic that goes into it. I think it's brilliant, and perfect for the non-vanilla ROM. Bruddog, I'm going to copy your post here, and put it into the other thread.

 

Dave

These were voted on and deemed the only hacks fit for a "vanilla" ROM and are featured in the 2013 release. Adjustable quarter length. Playbook editing in-game. Player 2 attributes now display correctly. Half time stats. Passing Accuracy now works.  Passing Accuracy determines if a pass will be completed.  Pass Control determines if the ball will be on target. Quickness now works. This will be the max speed of a defender if they pick up a fumble or make an interception.

I think creating a vanilla ROM is different than creating a BASE. Adjustable quarter length? Yes. You don't have to use it. Playbook editor? Yes. You don't have to use it. 2-Player Attributes? Yes. 'Cause they're broken. PA now works? No. It's not a difficult hack to implement if someone wants to. We have all of the information to do so on the board. Same goes with PC. Quickness is max speed of defender? It's clever, but arbitrary. Again, someone can install it if they want to later on.

 

Buck

Ultimately, I believe I am persuaded to not use any "hacks" except player 2 condition, for a true "vanilla" rom.

^ This. I think all of the above mentioned gameplay hacks are totally bitching. The best even. But installing them is a slippery slop, and while the creators of these hacks are super clever, and while I bow down to your think tanks and want all of these hacks in the 'Authentic NFL Experience' base ROM, I don't think any of them should be installed in a true vanilla base ROM. Are they not easy enough to install by the user themselves after reading a single thread or two, and learning what a HEX editor is? I think they are. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. And the goal of future work in these forums is to make the educational process even clearer for the clueless peeps who eventually arrive.

 

Bodom

re: Fatcheerleader. He's still a Romo fan. I think it's turning him gay.

^ This.

 

Bodom

I get wanting to please the masses...

To me, it's not just about pleasing the masses. It's about having a better starting point for a future generation of hacker, and maybe even ourselves if we decide to start from scrap with a new idea for a ROM. It's also about creating an updated learning tool (base ROM) for potentially old forum users looking to get their hands dirty in ROM editing. I think having a new base will be a very valuable asset to the community as a whole, especially as TB-org continues to expand, and if you haven't checked lately, it's expanding at a pretty rapid rate. The next three-to-five year demographic window, with Dave continuing to push the Facebook page, and with pop-culture media outlets continuing to pick up on the yearly releases, with the streamlining of information on the site, and presenting it in a more digestible fashion--I can only presume that the want to create hacked ROMs is going to increase. Having a new vanilla base ROM, that can be updated as needed as a base, and suggested for downloading across the board (much like the 32-team ROM is now), will be a huge boon to future ROM creators.

This is what I think.

 

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PS, I love the conversation that's going on. I applaud everyone involved. And whether or not you can see it through all of the text responses by everyone, I think the vision for this project gets clearer in every response. So let me ask the following question AS LOUDLY AS POSSIBLE...

1. Do we think it's best to leave the vanilla ROM as vanilla as possible? (No Stat Hacks.)
2. Do we say, "f--k it," and install the stat hacks we think make the most sense? (Yes Stat Hacks.)

Personally, I think we should leave them out. And instead, focus on putting them into the other hack-centric ROM that the other thread is still in discussion about. Clearly, I'm open to change in this opinion, as I think most-all of the hacks listed above are awesome. But are they OG TSB? Can they be claimed to be? If there's a doubt, then I say let's save the hacks for the other ROM.

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I'm thinking- start with a straight up, bug-free, color/graphic "modern", with in-game PB change, and quarter-length change, 32-team ROM.


 


when that one is all set up, then do a "basic hack" version - with some of these milder hacks (PA, Quickness/coverage, increased defense Turnover speed, etc.)


 


then a "heavy hack" with like the more complicated stuff, like grappling, bruddog dynamiccHP hacks, etc.

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I'm thinking- start with a straight up, bug-free, color/graphic "modern", with in-game PB change, and quarter-length change, 32-team ROM.

 

when that one is all set up, then do a "basic hack" version - with some of these milder hacks (PA, Quickness/coverage, increased defense Turnover speed, etc.)

 

then a "heavy hack" with like the more complicated stuff, like grappling, bruddog dynamiccHP hacks, etc.

^ This.

I think you're right to split it in three parts. Not to be redundant, but to support you line of thinking with some added reasoning...

1. A straight-up, bug free, modern colors where required, w/ in-game playbook editor, quarter-length change, 32-team ROM makes total sense to me. The changes either represent the current visualization of the league trademarked images, or are user-selectable.

Question: What do you think of changing the kickoff positioning to the 35 yard-line in this version? Does that entirely change the nature of the game? Necessary, unnecessary?

2. A basic-hack version. I'm interpreting 'basic hacks' as hacks that most-all users would prefer that don't irrevocably change the game beyond recognition as TSB. PC/PA/Bruddog INT/COMP Hack (whichever eventually ends up in it). Half-time stats? Quickness/Coverage? Etc. My philosophical design eye is looking at the purpose of this hack as a the shell that many 'more advanced' users would theoretically prefer a base ROM, if they were more educated as to the dead variables in the original TSB (PA/PC/Quickness). Or the subtle, non-obtrusive 'support hacks' that don't completely change in the in-game product (half-time stats, etc.)

3. The mega hack version. Basically, anything we eventually decide as the best hacks to create a more dynamic and authentic football experience, but not entirely losing track of the fact that we're playing Tecmo Super Bowl. (Kickoff Length Hacks. Possibly the touchback hack. OL/DL and the other ton of Bruddog's hacks. The universal stuff Buck has figured out. Maybe the 4/3 hack if it doesn't bloat the cart size? Hell, even potentially optimizing the offensive playbook so that it consists of all TSB-centric plays, but with the additions of modern formations (Pistol, Wildcat, whatever), the list goes on and on in theory--which is why we have the other thread for discussion's sake.

That about sound right? I think it's a great idea, Buck. I could see all of these being very useful tiers of ROMs for different intents, and not difficult to produce one from the other. The vanilla base ROM then gets turned into the basic-hack base ROM, which then, likely gets turned into the heavy-hack base ROM.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Anyone up for helping organize, or put down their interest to begin developing these games? We can start by trying to find some levl of agreement on the modified content of each iteration of ROM. I'd suggest we start at the easiest point, the TRUE VANILLA version and work our way up to the more complicated ROMs.


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As i said then im the wrong person for this thread.

I definitely get where you're coming from with this statement because we're talking about making Bud Light instead of Craft Brew.

I dont see how making passing ability do something isnt the same in terms of how the game plays as making quickness determine how often a db breaks up a pass.

 

Am i correct in assuming that Tecmo corrected this in TSB I and didn't do anything with Quickness? This makes this more of a bug fix than a hack in that regards. However, you're absolutely right.

 

 

the difference is that everybody knows how to rate PA and PC and what it does; whereas a "quickness" or your hack is too complicated and a totally unknown system (there is no standard to compare to - whereas with PA/PC, there is a standard to relate to).

 

Just to throw this out there, if you don't visit this site regularly, odds are you don't know that PA and QU don't do anything.

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Is this a discussion for what should the base rom be for Tecmobowl.org yearly releases or what should be a base rom for editing?  These are two slightly different objectives.


 


Honestly I feel most of the people making roms here would just end up changing the "base rom" to include hacks they deem essential. The ones that would just use the base rom and do nothing else probably won't even care what the base rom is.


 


If this is the only thing accomplished here, then it's worth doing.  Essentially, let's look at establishing CXROM 1.07 Final version, which should have 0 game play hacks.


 


It should only include any changes to the game that would enhance or fix non-game play...stuff like minutes, in-game play calling, Player 2 fix, etc


I'm unsure on the level of graphic updates.  Potentially should be limited to team logos only and should have versions for different years.

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Is this a discussion for what should the base rom be for Tecmobowl.org yearly releases or what should be a base rom for editing?  These are two slightly different objectives.

 

 

If this is the only thing accomplished here, then it's worth doing.  Essentially, let's look at establishing CXROM 1.07 Final version, which should have 0 game play hacks.

 

It should only include any changes to the game that would enhance or fix non-game play...stuff like minutes, in-game play calling, Player 2 fix, etc

I'm unsure on the level of graphic updates.  Potentially should be limited to team logos only and should have versions for different years.

 

I think you finally understand what this thread is about.  

 

 

Graphically, 

I would say - new NFL Logo (proads) 

also - we need to update the AFC/NFC probowl logos (I have some we could try)

updated team logos/helmets and colors (like white Bills helmet, for example)

"menu" - take out "weather", maybe change the word "menu" to "CLOCK"

update all the YEARS

 

Fixes,

Player 2 condition

the 32-team rom "bugs" (I will post the fixes later)

Edited by buck
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That last two posts sum up why I began this thread. Buck knows exactly what my intent was. Fix the CX_ROM-based / TSB-based errors. Update it graphically to make it contemporary (logos, dates, etc.). The edits made bring it to a place where it can be used instead of the 2007 version, which is still the current standard for base ROM development.


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1.  NFC WEST "offense preference" bug

( when playing live, heavy pass does heavy rush)

x273B4 change to x20 xB6 x9F

SET(0x273b4, 0x20b69f)

 

2.  NFC West "SIM" bugs

x27479 to x2747B should be x20 xB6 x9F (this goes to cxrom's written code for Team 1)

x27481 to x27483 should be x20 xB6 x9F (this goes to cxrom's written code for Team 2)

SET(0x27479, 0x20b69f)

SET(0x27481, 0x20b69f)

x27FCE should be xE0 (this makes it compare team value correctly)

SET(0x27fce, 0xe0)

 

3. Player 2 condition fix

SET(0x30e55, 0x20809f)

SET(0x31f90, 0xa66ee46df00218603860)

 

 

 

*Now, there are some other "hacks" regarding offense SIM and SIM calculations,

one is actually a fix:  for the TE (hanged the byte at x175CB from 04 to 05, see http://tecmobowl.org/topic/10512-applying-sim-data/#entry90243)

there is another that scales things a bit differently


Edited by buck
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If you wish to keep this more towards "original TSB gameplay," does this mean that things like the Nose Tackle Dive or the LB1 Punt Block will stay...or be removed (considered as bugs)?  I realize there is a "gentleman's agreement" when playing a human opponent to not use these (dare I say) "cheats," but wonder what it means for this new "base NES ROM".  

Personally, out in both (original gameplay and authentic NFL experience).  But then again, what do I know, being a NOOB here.   ;-)

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Good thoughts, I don't know where this stands. As for the original vanilla ROM, no. I don't imagine so. The other ROMs? Maybe. It just depends on how the majority who help view the Nose Tackle / Punt Block issues.


 


If you wish to keep this more towards "original TSB gameplay," does this mean that things like the Nose Tackle Dive or the LB1 Punt Block will stay...or be removed (considered as bugs)?

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Heeeyyyooo! Do we have any peeps that are willing to help start building the base of these ROMs? Clearly, it's easier from the bottom up. I think Buck's mental approach to this is the right start to the project. And even though there's clearly a great interest to converse about the project, it's still up in the air the interest to see it fulfilled. Are there any interested and capable persons?


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I will put a rom up with the following changes:


 


 


1.  NFC WEST "offense preference" bug

( when playing live, heavy pass does heavy rush)

x273B4 change to x20 xB6 x9F

SET(0x273b4, 0x20b69f)

 

2.  NFC West "SIM" bugs

x27479 to x2747B should be x20 xB6 x9F (this goes to cxrom's written code for Team 1)

x27481 to x27483 should be x20 xB6 x9F (this goes to cxrom's written code for Team 2)

SET(0x27479, 0x20b69f)

SET(0x27481, 0x20b69f)

x27FCE should be xE0 (this makes it compare team value correctly)

SET(0x27fce, 0xe0)

 

3. Player 2 condition fix

SET(0x30e55, 0x20809f)

SET(0x31f90, 0xa66ee46df00218603860)

 

*Now, there this other "hack" regarding offense SIM and SIM calculations,

one is actually a fix:  for the TE (changed the byte at x175CB from 04 to 05, see http://tecmobowl.org...ata/#entry90243)
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Awesome, Buck. That's a great start to correcting some major issues. Please feel free to post that revised 32-Team ROM in this thread. We could work off of it and trade it back and forth between users who are going to help continue updating it to a new polished base, here.

 

(I wish there was a way to 'tag' users in posts, like how Facebook does it...)

KeithIsGood, do you have an interest to update the logos in this new base being made? I'm open to whatever could be tweaked for the better, as I'm sure anyone would be. Let me know what you're thinking about this. Your Jaguars and Panthers logo updates are big improvements, in my opinion. I'd be happy to see if your eye saw improvements for the other 32-Team logos?

As always, suggestions about our process are welcomed!

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Once Buck posts the ROM, the only additional changes I think should be made are...


 


- In game Playbook editing


- Updated NFL logo


- Updated team helmets (both large and mini)


- PA/PC Hack (if people don't like this hack, in theory they could just make the two values the same and call it a day)


 


...and maybe Halftime stats.


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Once Buck posts the ROM, the only additional changes I think should be made are...

 

- In game Playbook editing

- Updated NFL logo

- Updated team helmets (both large and mini)

- PA/PC Hack (if people don't like this hack, in theory they could just make the two values the same and call it a day)

 

...and maybe Halftime stats.

There's an intention for a mid-level hack ROM base. I'm pretty sure this one is being developed just for major fixes, and graphic updates. It's being based off the 32-Team ROM.

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Once Buck posts the ROM, the only additional changes I think should be made are...

 

- In game Playbook editing

- Updated NFL logo

- Updated team helmets (both large and mini)

- PA/PC Hack (if people don't like this hack, in theory they could just make the two values the same and call it a day)

 

...and maybe Halftime stats.

 

bodong, go back and read the thread before making demands;  please.

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another thing we might consider is simply changing "1991 ROSTER" at the Super Bowl Champ Credit Screen to "TEAM ROSTER"?


 


that way, all other dates will be easy to change - this is the one that most people don't mess with.


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