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RS, RP, MS on Defense


kingsoby1

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view this thread first, on RS, RP, and MS on offense: http://www.tecmobowl.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4294

Basically, the same thing goes for defense... HOWEVER! with some HUUUUUGE exceptions

1) A defensive player will react in the same way as I describe is the relationship between RS, RP, and MS for offense for the amount of time it is required (as per his RP (acceleration) value) to get from his RS to his MS. The only exception to this rule is when RS is higher than MS. When this is true, you must immediately skip to part two (ie, lonnie young on the cards).

2) After condition 1 is met, a defensive player will continue to accelerate as per his RP (again) until he reaches the FS (Final Speed) of 100. I have not yet tested this, but you can look into it by making these calculations:

a - Use the equation presented in my offensive RS, RP, and MS thread:

V = Vo + at,

where:

V = 100

Vo = The speed value reached in #1

a = RP

b - Solve for t (time)...

t = (V - Vo) / a

This will solve for the amount of time it will take a player to get from the value reached in #1 to the FS of 100.

Some problems with this...

1) I don't know if 100 is the actual FS

2) I don't know what units the program keeps time in

This means that the equation is more of a generalization than an exact formula.

Some obvious points about these attributes on defense:

1) High RS on defense is obviously really overpowering... especially higher RS than MS; it totally eliminates the necessity of MS.

2) High RP on defense is the key attribute overall due to being the denominator in the equation I present (a greater denominator obviously causes your final answer to be smaller... a smaller answer means less time required to accelerate to the FS).

3) MS is important, but only in relation to RS and RP, and it is not important at all if the RS is higher than the MS.

Overall, this is the reason why Lonnie Young and Bob Nelson are amazing.

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MS must do something b/c it desyncs the game. Maybe Terminal speed is

Constant(100) +MS. Either that or a player acclerates fast from his RS to MS and the RP value represents a slower acceleration once that is met.

Otherwise a 44 56 50 guy is better than a 44 50 88 guy.

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i think you misunderstood bruddog... i said that MS does indeed do something.

1) A defensive player will react in the same way as I describe is the relationship between RS, RP, and MS for offense for the amount of time it is required (as per his RP (acceleration) value) to get from his RS to his MS.

this means that a player rated at 44/50/88 will accelerate to 88 in x time units and then accelerate to his FS afterward as per his RP.

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1) A defensive player will react in the same way as I describe is the relationship between RS, RP, and MS for offense for the amount of time it is required (as per his RP (acceleration) value) to get from his RS to his MS.

I guess I still don't get it.

What does RP do when RS and MS are equal?

You only talk about RP affecting the acceleration from the RS to MS. I understand the implications if MS is greater or less than RS, but does it do nothing if they are equal?

If that is the case, a 44 RS 0 RP 44 MS guy should be exactly the same as a 44 RS 100 RP 44 MS guy.

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the longest part of my post is here:

2) After condition 1 is met, a defensive player will continue to accelerate as per his RP (again) until he reaches the FS (Final Speed) of 100. I have not yet tested this, but you can look into it by making these calculations:

a - Use the equation presented in my offensive RS, RP, and MS thread:

V = Vo + at,

where:

V = 100

Vo = The speed value reached in #1

a = RP

b - Solve for t (time)...

t = (V - Vo) / a

This will solve for the amount of time it will take a player to get from the value reached in #1 to the FS of 100.

It's pretty obvious that I'm stating a player will accelerate from his RS or MS to his FS via RP. I don't know where you are lost??

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3) MS is important, but only in relation to RS and RP, and it is not important at all if the RS is higher than the MS.

Why is it important? As far as I can tell, it's completely meaningless based on what you've said. Like, in part one, the guy accelerates from from his starting speed at his acceleration constatnt. Then he gets to his MS but he just keeps accelerating to the universal top speed with the same acceleration.

Take Haddix and DT as an example. Same RS and RP, different MS. You say they start the same and accelerate the same. They both get to DT's 63 MS at the same time, and, as far as I am understanding you, they get to Haddix's MS at the same time and then to the FS at the same time. They should move identically.

Does anyone know if MS is actually important on defense? I have a Mac so I cant tool the values and see if Haddix moves the same with 6 MS as he does with 88 or whatever. DT and Haddix seem to move at similar speeds, but I'm not going to trust my intuition.

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It's pretty obvious that I'm stating a player will accelerate from his RS or MS to his FS via RP. I don't know where you are lost??

That does make sense for the defensive players. What Randy Moss may have been referring to is offensive players with the same RS and MS. Is there a difference in performance between a 44 RS 0 RP 44 MS guy and a 44 RS 100 RP 44 MS guy?

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Is there a difference in performance between a 44 RS 0 RP 44 MS guy and a 44 RS 100 RP 44 MS guy?

On defense, yes.

Defensive players are not capped at MS like offensive players. Instead, they are given a boost (maybe via the E0/E1/E2/E3 boost command bytes, if defense works like offense) so that they can catch up to the offensive players.

The boost is so great that the MS ends up not meaning much at all. Instead, the RP becomes the critical factor. The more RP a defender has, the faster he will reach his boosted MS. A defender of 44RS 100RP 0 MS will be better than a defender of 44RS 6RP 100MS.

The short of it is, for a defender, the RP is the critical factor for top speed, because it allows him to reach it more quickly.

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Defensive players are not capped at MS like offensive players. Instead, they are given a boost (maybe via the E0/E1/E2/E3 boost command bytes, if defense works like offense) so that they can catch up to the offensive players.

konForce, this question strays a bit from the topic but is there a way to change the boost that the defensive players are given? i noticed kingsoby mentioned that the value of final speed isn't known. Do the E0/E1/E2/E3 commands have any effect on whatever value is assigned to final speed?

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but on offense is there a difference between a 44 RS 0 RP 44 MS guy and a 44 RS 100 RP 44 MS guy?

No. On offense the RS=start, RP=acceleration, MS=max is somewhat of a simplification but it's pretty accurate, at least when RS

konForce, this question strays a bit from the topic but is there a way to change the boost that the defensive players are given? i noticed kingsoby mentioned that the value of final speed isn't known. Do the E0/E1/E2/E3 commands have any effect on whatever value is assigned to final speed?

I have not ever looked at the defensive code, so I'm only guessing that they use command bytes to increase speed. It could just be done at a global level, but that hasn't been the Tecmo style.

On offense the "E boosters" add speed to the player's normal setting. This is used on flea flickers so that the QBs get back in time, etc. Tecmo always sets the boost back to normal before handing the control back on regular plays. (However, when your QB throws an interception, he gets a boost that doesn't go away.)

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It's pretty obvious that I'm stating a player will accelerate from his RS or MS to his FS via RP. I don't know where you are lost??

lol, I get that.

What I'm saying is; when RS = MS, there shouldn't be any need to accelerate. If you start at 44 and end at 44, how would you accelerate between the two? (on offense)

You said that RP affects how fast you move from RS to MS. Well if RS = MS then there would be no movement. Hence, RP wouldn't do anything.

That is what I'm asking.

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Ok, now what confuses me is the defense.

So they go from RS to MS via their RP, and then from MS to their FS via their RP.

To echo the other posts; doesn't that eliminate the importance of MS?

Comparing a player who is 44 RS 56 RP 50 MS vs. a player who is 44 RS 56 RP 94 MS; wouldn't they be equal?

The acceleration variable, 56 RP, is the same whether they go from 44 to 50, to FS, or 44 to 94 to FS. The acceleration would never change, so their speed should be equal.

I somehow doubt that they would be equal which makes me think that MS influences what their FS is. Couldn't someone just create two players to test this out...

Test a 44 RS, 56 RP, 0 MS vs. a 44 RS, 56 RP, 100 MS guy.

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i understand your point, and i have also covered it earlier in the thread.

basically, i stated right off the bat saying that my value for FS is probably not right (being 100).

see this thread: http://www.tecmobowl.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 94602ed9b4

for a description of FS that you can just plug in here and it seems to work fine.

i pretty much already noted that the formula i presented for defensive relationships of the values didn't work exactly - the point is that the "general relationship" that i presented works out, ie, nearly exactly what the values mean and do, with the exception of the FS value.

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  • 2 months later...

Isn't FS also boosted for the player that is MAN controlled? Meaning whatever player I use, no matter his stats, I will almost always pass everyone else on the field when chasing down the ball carrier. The stats just determine how long it takes for me to reach that boosted state.

Also, how does it work for kickers? All kickers have stats of 56/81/81, but they never reach the returner first, and you can't stop a returner from getting a TD once he passes you. You have to wait for one of your drones to catch him.

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  • 14 years later...

ok, this isn't anything that's tested, and there's some guesswork...more so just a collection of observations that may be a useful place to start if anyone wanted to test it. First of all, the "FS" may very well be 100, judging by how fast a fully boosted player catches up to an 88 or 94MS player...unless anybody has any actual evidence that the game stores and uses attribute values outside of 06-100, then this is likely the case. It could be easily tested by setting an offensive player's MS to 100 and seeing if the defense can catch up to him in the open field, I suppose.

 

Second, I'm fairly certain that there is a condition that must be met before the boost to FS kicks in (maybe IS ball carrier past the first down marker, maybe IS defender running backwards, maybe IS ball carrier past the defender?) and until that condition is met, the regular MS applies. So MS does matter a lot still, it's just overtaken in pursuit of a ball carrier that is in the open field. Some observations I would point to would be...let's say your 6RS 100RP 6MS defender has busted through the DL and is now engaged in backside pursuit of a RB that is sweeping away from him toward the bottom of the screen...lets give that RB 69RS 69RP 63MS. That defender is likely never going to catch him on the backside pursuit because, even though he reached his max speed almost instantly, no boost is kicking in to give him the speed to catch the runner with higher MS. Another observable event is a deep pass to a WR...let's give him 38RS 50RP 69MS who is being covered by a defender with 69RS 50RP 38MS. You will see the defender easily guard the WR, who is running in a straight line, at the beginning of the route, but the WR will have good separation by the time the ball gets there. So even though both players were running in a straight line, and the defender had ample time to hit his max speed, no boost ever kicked in to give him the MS he needed to catch up to the WR...until the WR makes the catch and is running in the open field.

 

Also, I tend to think that RP doesn't apply to the ability to accelerate from MS to FS, or if it does, there's a boost to RP that makes it negligible. The only reason I say this is because once you have a pile of guys in open field pursuit, they don't tend to overtake one another. This is easier to observe with a running back breaking into the open field, since more of his pursuers will still be on screen. You can see people hitting their max speeds and accelerating to their FS by basically the same margins. This one, I'm not as confident on, but the purpose of the way the game is built is giving all the offense the same RP and giving the defenders lower RPs to create those big plays that allow you to play a football game in the lapse of 5min sped up quarters, but then because they've done that, they need a way to keep every play that wasn't stopped by the front 7 from reaching the end zone. So the effect they're producing with the RP is just to keep the defenders slow while you zig zag around them, not for determining that a better player should make the open field tackle after a 50yd gain, although I do wish TSB recorded a tackle stat!

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This whole thread is very old news @Ian Jones. We know exactly how all the attributes work.

 

Running speed is the players starting speed. It uses a different lookup table. 50 running speed is equal to starting speed of 06 offensive maximum speed

 

Rushing power is acceleration. In some cases different rushing power values have the same acceleration because thats the way the look up table is set up. Every so many frames the player moves up one notch of current speed up to their

top speed.

 

offensive and defensive players have different lookup tables for their top speeds. A defensive player with 06MS is equivalent to offensive player that had 106 MS.

 

There are a couple other weird things that go on with the man controlled player. The game adjusts the top speed down and then after a period of time adjusts it back up.

 

The reason defenders don’t go past WR’s is that they rubber band back and forth if they are in man coverage. The reason they get burned is they get slowed down when they get close to the WR so they dont run way past him and then it takes them awhile to reach their top speed since their starting speed and acceleration is much less than an offensive player.

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I noticed. If I could go back to 05 and post, I would. But no, I'm more or less asking why did everything stop? I'm a part of several modding forums for PC games and they stop too, but there's usually a clear and obvious reason...like a new version of the game came out which implemented all the stuff that was being modded into the old game...but you guys started messing around with this game like a decade after it's release, in which span, there were a other incarnations of the game....but most everyone is still interested in the old game. Or sometimes a community just feels like there's not much else to be done with the game and it kind of fades out...but here half the hacks aren't perfected or they don't work at all or they don't work with half the other hacks. Everything is even still done in broad scope hex editors....outside of rosters and playbooks, no one's even made a gui that translates this game into a more human language so the barrier to entry for modifying this game is huge compared to far more complex games of the current decade. It feels like everyone was hard at this thing and then in the middle of all of it, everyone scattered, leaving hacks half finished and abandoned, documentation strewn here and there, and no evidence as to why. This must've been what it felt like to walk through chernobyl after the melt down lol. Did Tecmo send somebody a cease and desist?

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