How Do You Rate the Offensive Linemen?

[cuppettcj]

I'm trying to develop a system for rating Tecmo players based on their real-life stats. The problem comes in with offensive linemen. They have no legitimate stats to speak of. I've heard of the "pancake" block, but apparently this is not a legitimate stat, because I can't find it listed in the NFL Record & Fact Book. I don't think it happens that much in the NFL, anyway. I believe it's more of a college stat.

I know some people rate offensive linemen by how many sacks the entire line gives up, but I think such a system would be unfair to certain players. Consider Willie Anderson of the Bengals - Pro Bowl OT, crappy line as a whole. There has to be a way to individually rank offensive linemen objectively. I've thought of using Madden numbers, but I just want to know if anyone has a better system when making updated ROMs.

[palmcd]

I rank based on Team passing and rushing stats

Give bonuses for All-Pro voting and HOF

[cuppettcj]

I rank based on Team passing and rushing stats

Give bonuses for All-Pro voting and HOF

When you say All-Pro voting and Hall of Fame, do you mean being selected or just receiving votes? Where do you find Pro Bowl and All-Pro rosters from past seasons?

I'm still not sure if that's the best way to go, but perhaps it's better than using Madden numbers. My goal is to be objective, so that no one can legitimately complain if I release a ROM and one of their favorite players got "jipped".

[Knobbe]

It's hard to be objective when ranking linemen is by nature subjective.

[cuppettcj]

It's hard to be objective when ranking linemen is by nature subjective.

I suppose what I mean by "objective" is that I don't want my opinion or anyone else's unqualified opinion to interfere with the rankings. If I could find some sort of pro football scouting report that ranked linemen, that would be more than good enough. Otherwise, I'll probably just go with a system similar to palmcd's.

[Carther]

O.k. this is what I usually do.

First get a list of the pro bowl linemen. If there were 15 linemen on pro bowl rosters then I rank them from 1 to 15. Then I look in the original tecmo superbowl game using the TSBM to rate the offensive lineman. I give the number 1 lineman from the season I am doing the ratings from the TSBM number 1 rated lineman. Then I do the same thing all the way down to 15. (This takes care of your concern about a good player not

getting good stats because he's on a sucky team)

Then I look at a bunch of team stats that I think reflect how well an offensive line plays together as a unit. Rush TD, Ave per rush, Ave per pass, Sacks allowed. Then I rank each team from 1 - 32 in each category. Then I average the scores and rank the teams from 1 - 32.

Let's say that:

Dallas is # 1

Pittsburgh #2

New England #3

Once again I have TSBM rank the best offensive lines from the original Tecmo Superbowl. Dallas' linemen would get the rankings from the team

TSBM rated #1. If Dallas has a probowler-he has already been rated. Then you throw out the best rated lineman and use the other four sets of ratings for the other four Dallas linemen. You repeat this for all the teams.

It works good for me.

[cuppettcj]

O.k. this is what I usually do...

I think I like your idea the best. I'll probably implement one change, though. Instead of just ranking the best linemen and matching their abilities to the best linemen in the original ROM, I think I'll break it down by position (center, guard, tackle) and give the best center the best center's abilities from the original ROM and so forth. I've already got the OL broken down by position in a spreadsheet, so it shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

[bruddog]

I did mine the following way:

Tackles stats were based on sacks allowed/#of pass attempts.

Gaurds stats were based on total yards and yards/carry

Center was an average of both

Statistical analysis was used to figure out how good and bad teams should be.

For example say the average sacks allowed was 43. You then decide what you want your middle HP to be 50 56 etc. Then you use standard deviation to help really define how much better one team was vs another.

Say one team only allowed 13 sacks and that put them 3 standard deviations away from the mean and you decided your average OL HP

was 50HP. Maybe you give that team 3 ratings points higher so that the average is 69.

Then I tried to use scouting reports to make twweak here and there to individual players.

My main concern was to get the OL as a whole right.

[cuppettcj]

Then I tried to use scouting reports to make twweak here and there to individual players.

Where did you get the scouting reports? I've been looking online and in bookstores for awhile now, but I can't find a scouting report for NFL players anymore.

[bruddog]

Mostly by ESPN's online season preview. Obviously there wasn't something on every guy but it was better than nothing.

[RushyDaRabbit]

When I rated offensive lineman in TSB III Dream Teams I based their ratings on ....

1. Number of Pro Bowls

2. Measurables - Height and Weight

3. Era

I believe that it is kind of tricky rating offensive lineman. Especially in Tecmo Super Bowl. Are you going to give a 365 pound offensive lineman low ratings in the power area because he struggled in last season? I say no!

If an offensive lineman is huge but is not an elite player you can still give a good power rating and then knock him down in the speed and agility area. Which is pretty accurate anyway. If a lineman is a huge stiff he is usually a good run blocker and weak in pass protection. You'll get that result in him in TSB by lowering his speed and agility.

On the other hand when you have an undersized offensive lineman you would want to lower his power rating and higher his agility and speed ratings. He'll be able to adjust to speed rushers but will struggle against bigger stronger defensive lineman.

When you have a freak of nature. Orlando Pace types. You can give them good power and good speed and agility. That would put them above the other players at their position.

Even when editing All-Pros you should look at why they are All-Pros. If a guy is a great pass protecting Left Tackle he may still not be a great run blocker. So you wouldn't want to jack his power up. Vice-versa for strong run blockers that are weak pass protectors.

One thing is for sure. You will have your work cut out for your when editing offensive lineman. Hopefully this thread has given you some ideas how it can be done successfully.

[amrush]

For my TSB3 all-time (1970-1999) rom, developing the O-line stats was relatively easy:

- Base RS & MS are 13; more than 50% of the OL players are 19, and a few here & there were either 13 or 25

- Base RP is 50; most players are 56 and the ceiling is 69

- Base BB & AG are 44 & 25 respectively; most players are 50 & 31 and the respective ceilings are 69 & 38

Many of these numbers were set based on measurements... taller & lighter guys would be faster & have higher AG but lower BB; shorter & heavier guys reversed. Not a lot of wiggle room between the base & ceiling values of these attributes, so no major distinctions. Obviously the 70s OLinemen were generally lighter than the 90s...

Of course HP is the big deal for these guys, and I figured it thusly:

- Base HP is 56 (no career Pro Bowl appearances)

- HP of 63 for 1 PB appearance

- HP of 69 for 2-3 PB appearances

- HP of 75 for 4-5 PB appearances

- HP of 81 for 6+ PB appearances

Using this scale the overall league OL numbers shake out pretty evenly from top to bottom (ie: roughly 20/20/20/20/20).

I had originally started the HP base at 50 (same as DLinemen), but the per-game sack totals were so f*ckin' high (in COA & COM mode) that I upped it to 56. The numbers are far more reasonable now, though I do get 10-sack games once in a while from some teams (BUF, MINN & LA Rams, for example).

For single-season simming I really wouldn't know where to start with attribute scales for individual OLinemen. Good luck...

AM

[CMigs]

http://www.footballoutsiders.com

A great site generally, but for this discussion, it has stats on how well teams run right, left, and center. This could help in parsing out who the best members of an individual line should be.

[bruddog]

Yup, that is a great site. Been visiting that one for months now.

[BO FB Offtackle Left]

I don't think I'm really adding anything here, since a lot of people have some good systems, but what the hell. Here's my ideas for a single season.

I've only completed one rom, and I'm still not happy with it, but one thing I will probably keep exactly the same is the OL. For HP, I started out with team ratings, based on three things - sacks allowed, total yards, and points scored. I assigned Tecmo ratings for each category from 38-81, in relation to the other teams for that year. For example, in 1983 Washington got 56 for sacks allowed, 75 for total yards, and 81 for points scored. That averages out to a little over 69, so the base rating of Washington's OL was 69. I also considered a team's record that year. For example, SD got ratings of 69, 81, and 56, but finished 6-10, so I gave them a base of 63.

Then I adjusted up or down for each individual player. On Washington, Russ Grimm, Joe Jacoby, and Jeff Bostic were all in the Pro Bowl that year (plus I knew them by reputation), so I gave them 75 HP. I don't remember Mark May, but he was a decent size so he stayed at 69. I don't remember George Starke either, and he was light for a OL, so I gave him 44 MS and lowered his HP to 63. Fairly simple process.

Another good example is CIN, who ended up with a base HP of 50. But Anthony Munoz is on CIN, so I ignored the team rating and gave him 81 HP because he's Anthony Munoz, and he was in the Pro Bowl in '83 anyway.

Not exactly scientific, but it works and I had fun with it.

[arnie019]

I've always used the current Madden ratings and adjust those if necessary because Madden ratings can be a little off sometimes.