Accuracy of Passing, Quickness - What Do They Do?

[cuppettcj]

I have a lot to say, but I'll try to keep this post as pithy as possible. I've always assumed that Quickness and Accuracy of Passing were significant in TSB, although I never really tested them. After reading Leif Power's (aka Nameless Loser) FAQ, which questioned the significance of Quickness, I decided to run some tests using TSB Manager. Lo and behold, I wasn't able to discover any effect Quickness had on the game. Recently I read the debate on Accuracy of Passing at the OnlineTecmo board. Now I'm wondering if this rating has an effect. Again I went into TSB Manager and this time set AOP to different extremes and then tried to notice some difference. Again, I couldn't detect one thing that this rating affected.

This leaves me completely baffled. We all know that every punter in TSB has a meaningless Avoid Kick Block rating, since Tecmo didn't allow you to block punts, but did Tecmo actually render Accuracy of Passing and Quickness meaningless too? Can somebody out there prove that either of these two ratings do anything in a game?

Some people at the OnlineTecmo board say they can prove that the two ratings do nothing because of the fact that online gameplay is never affected when the host ROM has different Quickness and Accuracy of Passing ratings than the client ROM. Changes to other ratings between the two ROMs, they claim, will cause an online game to go "out of sync". One person there cites Passing Speed as an example. If the host ROM has the quarterback at 100 Passing Speed, while the client ROM has the same quarterback at 6 Passing Speed, during a deep pass the host user will see the ball zooming through the air and perhaps sail over the head of the intended receiver. The client user, however, will see the pass floating through the air and perhaps a leaping catch by the receiver. This results in the users seeing two different games, rendering further online play at this point impossible.

After doing some deep thinking on this, I began to wonder about other ratings and how they might have an effect on online play. Consider Ball Control. Low Ball Control doesn't guarantee a player will fumble every time, nor does high Ball Control guarantee a player will never fumble. It only increases or decreases the likelihood of a fumble. When a player is tackled during a game, some random number is generated and then compared to the player's Ball Control rating to determine whether or not that player will fumble. During an online game, if this random number were generated and compared to Ball Control on both ROMs, then it seems logical to me that even if the Ball Control rating were the same on both ROMs, every now and then one online user would witness a fumble while the other wouldn't, simply because the random numbers generated would be different. I'm assuming this never happens, otherwise it would make almost any online game go "out of sync". So obviously two random numbers are not generated every time a player is tackled in an online game.

This leaves two possibilities - either only one random number is generated, perhaps by the host ROM, and then compared to the Ball Control ratings of both ROMs; or only one random number is generated and compared to the Ball Control rating of only one ROM, perhaps only the host ROM. If the latter possibility were the case, then the Ball Control rating for the other ROM would be obsolete, meaning that changing it would never cause two ROMs to go "out of sync". This is my theory. Since I don't play online, perhaps someone could test this. If my theory is correct, then that might explain why Accuracy of Passing doesn't cause two ROMs to go "out of sync". The game might only be checking the AOP rating of one ROM when deciding where the pass will go.

If I'm wrong, and AOP really does do nothing, then recognition of this by the Tecmo community would change a lot. When making new ROMs, AOP could be ignored or just set to be the same as PC, making updating ROMs a lot easier, at least for the NES version. This leads to my other question - on which versions of TSB is AOP insignificant? Can it be confirmed that it does nothing on all of the SNES and Genesis versions of the game as well? What about Quickness on all the other versions? I plan on using TSB2000 Manager to test this, but it may take some time.

[moonwalk]

This leaves me completely baffled. We all know that every punter in TSB has a meaningless Avoid Kick Block rating, since Tecmo didn't allow you to block punts, but did Tecmo actually render Accuracy of Passing and Quickness meaningless too?

I have personally witnessed an LT in EXCELLENT block a punt.

As for AOP, i think that it may have something to do with misthrows.

[Joker]

I have personally witnessed an LT in EXCELLENT block a punt.

I have too, among others, but I think he means actually blocking a punt, not devouring the holder

[bruddog]

Quickness and AOP do nothing. At least when run in nesticle. Unless there was an inaccurate dump of the original code from the cartridge quickness and AOP appear to do nothing. From a pure gameplay standpoint, I have played many games where I set all my defensive guys to 06 and set my qb's AOP to 06 as well as the positive extreme and couldn't tell one lick of difference between the 06's and the 94ers.

Having two ROM's with different BALL control will definitely cause the game to "go out of sync" in online play. Here is another way I've tested

it: I have many recorded games from league play. I have had many games where there have been fumbles i the game. Going back into the rom and giving a guy that fumbled 100BC sometimes causes him not to fumble and casue the rest of the game to play back improperly...because its "out of sync."

However in testing MANY, MANY games where I changed th QB's AOP to 06 I have never ever seen the movie play back differently. Same with Quickness. I think people just have to accept that it doesn't do anything at least in MAN vs MAN. I've done some inconclusive testing that suggests it MAY have an efffect in COM vs COM mode.

Back to fumbling. My theory on how it works is like you stated but with a twist. I think everytime two players come in contact a random number gets generated that determines whether there is a possible fumble

event. If this comes back positive, then there is another number generated that is compared to some combination of the defensive players

hitting power and the offensive players BC. Testing of this theory through the movie method seems to hold as often times it will take quite awhile for the ROM to desync suggesting that possible fumble events come up fairly rarely.

[Bad Moon Rison]

Accuracy of Passing is an indicator of how well a QB throws the ball so that his receiver catches it. In a sense, it is the QB's equivalent to the WR's receptions ability. In fact, AOP is probably more relevant than receptions in the NES version compared with other versions of the game (most of my judgments on ratings are based on different versions of TSB). AOP is not to be confused with Pass Control, which affects the QBs ability to avoid throwing a misguided pass (e.g.- a pass overthrown or out of bounds). I agree with bruddog's comment on the onlinetecmo board on the importance of pass control. Lack of pass control is why John Elway sucks.

[cuppettcj]

Accuracy of Passing is an indicator of how well a QB throws the ball so that his receiver catches it. In a sense, it is the QB's equivalent to the WR's receptions ability. In fact, AOP is probably more relevant than receptions in the NES version compared with other versions of the game (most of my judgments on ratings are based on different versions of TSB). AOP is not to be confused with Pass Control, which affects the QBs ability to avoid throwing a misguided pass (e.g.- a pass overthrown or out of bounds). I agree with bruddog's comment on the onlinetecmo board on the importance of pass control. Lack of pass control is why John Elway sucks.

I would like to agree with you, Bad Moon, but unfortunately I have found no definitive evidence to substantiate AOP's significance. You said you agreed with bruddog's comment, but bruddog believes AOP does absolutely nothing. If AOP did help a receiver catch the ball better, then we should be able to verify this somehow.

[yo136]

A simple test to prove the point.

Use TSB manager to set a QB's pass accuracy to 100 and pass control to 0. Throw a ton of passes to a 50 rec reciever. Then set their pass accuracy to 0 then set the pass control to 100. Throw a ton of passes to a 50 rec reciever.

Record results.

[Bad Moon Rison]

I would like to agree with you, Bad Moon, but unfortunately I have found no definitive evidence to substantiate AOP's significance. You said you agreed with bruddog's comment, but bruddog believes AOP does absolutely nothing. If AOP did help a receiver catch the ball better, then we should be able to verify this somehow.

1) I agree AOP is overrated, at least compared with Pass Control.

2) I was agreeing with bruddog's comment on the onlinetecmo boards that pass control affects errant passing and how it is probably the most valuable stat.

3) I base my observations on all versions of TSB. Such a trait might be true for the NES, where I have vastly less experience. The SNES versions place more of the onus on the receiver, but I have found certain passers with high Passing Accuracy to be better than those with high Passing Speed.

I like Yo's idea. I don't know if anyone has tried to do that before or has noted how certain QBs with high AOP differ from low AOP. It should also be noted that just because you changed a particular attribute in TSB manager that it does not necessarily mean that there might be certain aspects of the game that might be hardwired.

A harder question if the test proves negative: Could Passing Accuracy affect interceptions?

[bruddog]

While it is possible they are hardwired, it is not probable. Furthermore if they are hadwired somewhere else that means that changing them in TSBM will do nothing.

Furthermore Elway should be much better if AOP really meant something b/c of his high PA but he reallis just a faster version of all the other low PC scrubs like Brister. Even on the NEs I've never found him to be very good.

And I have tested it setting AOP to 06 and 100 and throwing to the same WR. Not a lick of statistical difference. Even in games against another MAN opponent didn't notice any difference.

[Knobbe]

A harder question if the test proves negative: Could Passing Accuracy affect interceptions?

All you need to do is record a game with interceptions and change the passing accuracy number around when you play the game back. If the game plays normally, PA means nothing.

[scott]

It is my understanding that pass control has to do with if passes are intercepted and pass accuracy has to do with getting the ball to the receiver without throwing errantly. I am a big advocate of quickness being a meaningful stat. I've done a test on the difference between max speed and quickness in tsb manager, and I came to the conclusion that they aid each other in how fast a player is. I did this by giving an RILB 94 max speed and 06 quickness and the LILB 06 max speed and 94 quickness, and the result was that they both had nearly identical speeds. I'd think that quickness may help in a player's initial speed and max would help in longer runs, but that is pure speculation.

[bruddog]

and pass accuracy has to do with getting the ball to the receiver without throwing errantly. I am a big advocate of quickness being a meaningful stat. I've done a test on the difference between max speed and quickness in tsb manager, and I came to the conclusion that they aid each other in how fast a player is. I did this by giving an RILB 94 max speed and 06 quickness and the LILB 06 max speed and 94 quickness, and the result was that they both had nearly identical speeds. I'd think that quickness may help in a player's initial speed and max would help in longer runs, but that is pure speculation.

No no no no no no no. Try and play me sometime and all your guys get 06 ms 94 qui mine get 94ms 06 qui. Good luck! Believe it if you want but you are believing in something that just isn't true.

[scott]

I'm skeptical, not because I don't believe you, but more because I don't know why Tecmo creators would include these categories if they serve no purpose.

[Ignarant]

i ran a test with 2 qb's

qb 1 had 50 ps 99 pc 06 pa and 63apb

out of a 100 throws to each type of reciever

his results to a Set Reciever (non moving)

97 Good Throws (perfectly thrown passes) 3 Ok Throws (descent throws but the wr had to move a few steps out of his set spot. 0 Bad Throws (out of the vicinity of the wr, way off) 0 dropped passes of any quality

his results to a Moving Reciever

72 instride (perfectly hitting em in the numbers) 20 jump/dive (ok passes, maybe not caught but the wr made a jump or dive and could have been caught) 8 bad throw/no jump or dive (maybe not a horrible throw, but there was no jump or dive and pass probably fell incomplete)

qb 2 had 50ps 06pc 99 pa 63 apb

out of a 100 throws

his results to a Set Reciever

57 Good Throws (perfect) 19 Ok throws (catchable but wr had to move) 1 bad throw 20 good drops (perfect pass but droped) 3 ok drop (descent pass but droped)

Moving Reciever

15 instride (perfect) 40 jump/dive (maybe not all were caught but they had a chance to be, i guess) 45 bad throws (no jumps or dives, overthrows and horrible passes)

[adobery]

I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure the tests you just did have a method flaw. If you are trying to determine whether PA has an effect, there needs to be a control. In one test you had high PC and low PA, then the other low PC and high PA. There needs to be a constant. One test with high PC and low PA, then another with high PC and high PA. Flip flopping the two doesn't make sense to me, just swapping good/bad attributes might nullify any changes you might see.

[Ignarant]

well it was just for comparison, if i ever get bored enough ill do different arrangements in attributes. the test doesnt show that pa is worthless, but controll would be more valuable of the two.

[bruddog]

Adobery is right. Your method is flawed. You need to change only one variable at a time. Like 94PC 06PA. Then 94PC 94PA. And run it a lot of times for it to be statistically signifigant.

[Knobbe]

Block Punt attribute

Penalty Flag sound byte

None of these issues came into the game. I think Tecmo drew up what they wanted in the game and ran out of time while programming.

I'm skeptical, not because I don't believe you, but more because I don't know why Tecmo creators would include these categories if they serve no purpose.

[Bad Moon Rison]

Block Punt attribute

Penalty Flag sound byte

None of these issues came into the game. I think Tecmo drew up what they wanted in the game and ran out of time while programming.

If this is true, why does AOP remain in later versions? If it had no purpose the first time, they would have taken them out.

[Knobbe]

My guess is they got this attribute working, if not in TSB for the SNES, then TSB II and III.

You can block punts in all of these, no?

Given proper time and/or hardware, I would guess they coded this in.

Someone test out AOP on TSB I and III for the SNES. I'm guessing you can get it to desync there.

Block Punt attribute

Penalty Flag sound byte

None of these issues came into the game. I think Tecmo drew up what they wanted in the game and ran out of time while programming.

If this is true, why does AOP remain in later versions? If it had no purpose the first time, they would have taken them out.

[cuppettcj]

Well, I ran some tests using Nesticle's NES Movie feature, and now I am fully convinced that AOP and Quickness do nothing in the NES version. Thanks to bruddog for giving me this idea.

Using the NES Movie feature, I can isolate which ratings do what by recording a movie, editing the ROM, and then playing back the movie to see if it goes out of sync. I successfully proved that Pass Control, Avoid Pass Block, and Ball Control all have an effect on the game, as suspected. I didn't need to test Passing Speed, Running Speed, Rushing Power, Maximum Speed, or Hitting Power, since I had long since established their effects using TSB Manager. I didn't test Receptions or Pass Interceptions, but I think we can all agree that these ratings have an effect without having to test for them. That just left AOP and Quickness.

In my last test, I tried testing a theory that Quickness and AOP might only do something later in the season, affecting how juiced up the CPU gets when you carry a long winning streak into the game. I played with Cleveland and took them to 6-0 before playing San Diego. I noticed that the Charger's defense was playing really juiced up, so I reset the emulator, closed the ROM, and opened up TSB Manager. I then set Kosar's AOP to 100 and every member of the Charger's defense to 6 Quickness. I then played a full game, passing every play, and recorded every second of it. Afterwards, I went back into TSB Manager, changed Kosar's AOP to 6, and every Charger's defesive player to 100 Quickness. My theory was that I could prove at least one of the two ratings had an effect by making the movie go out of sync. The movie played back perfectly.

I know that bruddog already did this, but I just wanted to see for myself. I'm now convinced, just as he is. My next plan is to test TSB for the Genesis to see if they coded these ratings in for that version. My problem is that I use the Gens emulator and it doesn't have a movie feature. Hopefully I can establish the ratings' relevance without having to use it.

[allstar4]

Nice work. What exactly is rushing power by the way?

[cuppettcj]

Rushing Power effects how fast a player accelerates to his Maximum Speed. Running Speed is a player's starting speed. A good way to witness this is to go into TSB Manager and set some running back's RS to 6, RP to 6, and MS to 100. At first the back is very slow, but if you can keep moving while avoiding getting hit for a few seconds, he'll get very fast. Now go into TSB Manager and set that back's RP to 100. Despite the fact his RS is still 6, all you'll see is pure, unadulterated speed. That's because now he accelerates to top speed almost instantaneously. One thing to remember is that MS is apparently added to RS to determine a runner's top speed. If you set a player's MS to be lower than his RS, he'll still accelerate a little, I think. At the very least, he won't deccelerate.

[Bad Moon Rison]

I always thought Quickness dealt with how quick the computer AI responds to the play. Everyone knows how crazy TSB AI gets later in the season and is determined based on your record. Perhaps the attribute of Quickness is something determined for the entire game, just not a few plays. Did you guys take the movie before you actually started the game or during the game, e.g.- the coin flip, middle of the play, etc.?

Getting back to INTs, does anybody know if interception rating for defensive players does anything?

[cuppettcj]

I started recording after the coin toss. I'm not sure if a movie will sync up if I started recording before the coin toss anyway. I'll give it a try. I'm pretty sure that the Interception ability matters, but I'll test that out too.