yo136 Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Also, statistics don't tell you how good a cornerback is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 thats a good point, yo. some cornerbacks are so good that QBs are afraid to throw it near them, so their interception totals aren't as high as others. look at the eagles secondary last year. they had three of the four voted to the pro bowl but vincent was the most feared out of them so people threw to bobby taylor more, therefore vincent had 2 INT while taylor had 5. they did the same thing in tecmo to albert lewis. he's a pro bowler but had so few INT that they gave him only a 50 I think.scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 thats a good point, yo. some cornerbacks are so good that QBs are afraid to throw it near them, so their interception totals aren't as high as others. look at the eagles secondary last year. they had three of the four voted to the pro bowl but vincent was the most feared out of them so people threw to bobby taylor more, therefore vincent had 2 INT while taylor had 5. they did the same thing in tecmo to albert lewis. he's a pro bowler but had so few INT that they gave him only a 50 I think.scottScott my man, your mind is warped. The only person afraid to throw it to Troy Vincent is you. Bobby Taylor is a big corner who is on his game, you have to give him credit for his 5 INTs. Vincent only had 2 becuz he is getting old, not becuz people are afraid to throw his way. It's different if you are old but playing safety, like Rod Woodson. If Rod was still playing corner, he'd be getting toasted. Now, on the other hand, people are afraid to throw it to Charles. Quarterbacks are actually on record saying that. The past couple years however, they knew he wasn't 100%, so they tried a few times. But when he is healthy, which he is now, he gets so damn bored guarding one man that he acts as a corner/safety, helping to guard other receivers and force fumbles and make plays. trust me, bro, when I see the Raiders on TV I only concentrate on #24 and what he does. BUT! After all that, I do understand how you don't hold him in the highest regard becuz of past inuries, as do the coaches, which is why contract negotiations are being delayed. I have faith in my boy and (obviously) will defend him till I die. All I can say at this point is keep an eye on him this season, he's healthy, and the opposing QB has to make the choice between Buchanon and Woodson, which means big plays for both of em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 p.s.---the most feared player in the secondary for the Eagles is not your boy Vincent, it's Brian Dawkins. The man is a beast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 brian dawkins is feared because he's been known to decapitate players, not because he's a real threat to pick off passes. he's just like john lynch in that respect. bobby taylor has been around for a long time but if I'm not mistaken, just got his first pro bowl berth. I'd be curious to see if you say charles woodson is "old" five years from now when he is TV's age and say he should move to safety because he only gets 2 interceptions each season. think about it. to date charles woodson had one good season because of chronic injuries. he is certainly a more physically talented player than most players in the league, but he has to do it for longer than his rookie season to be better than TV, who has been an elite cornerback for years. scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonwalk Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 at this point it is required by law to change the name of this topic from "49ers"anyway, for ease of me reading threads--and the purpose of everyone else's life is to make things easier for me (all hail warren moon)--joker you need to 1) start editing your posts instead of filling pages with replies to yourself and 2) become a little more concise. this isn't a personal attack, i just don't have a scroll mouse at work (truly a tragedy)on the actual topic, i agree with scott about the importance of longevity. you have to hang around and be referred to by sportscasters as "a wily veteran" for at least a year or two before i will grant you elite status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Scotty, you ain't gonna enjoy this post...I went over to ESPN.com and wondered what they had to say about ol' Brian Dawkins. I read an article about his latest signing to a $43 million contract, and I noticed something interesting. Shall I quote it? I think I shall."Said Vincent: 'He can cover like a corner and hit like a linebacker and he almost never makes a mental mistake. He's the best in the business, period.'"My my my, I sincerely believe I won this argument. Sucks when the guy you defend is defending the Joker, huh? As Ace Ventura once said, DO YOU LIKE THAT? HUH? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamburgler2682 Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Scotty, you ain't gonna enjoy this post...I went over to ESPN.com and wondered what they had to say about ol' Brian Dawkins. I read an article about his latest signing to a $43 million contract, and I noticed something interesting. Shall I quote it? I think I shall."Said Vincent: 'He can cover like a corner and hit like a linebacker and he almost never makes a mental mistake. He's the best in the business, period.'"My my my, I sincerely believe I won this argument. Sucks when the guy you defend is defending the Joker, huh? As Ace Ventura once said, DO YOU LIKE THAT? HUH?Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding...Winner By KO...THE JOKER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benimaru Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Scotty, you ain't gonna enjoy this post...I went over to ESPN.com and wondered what they had to say about ol' Brian Dawkins. I read an article about his latest signing to a $43 million contract, and I noticed something interesting. Shall I quote it? I think I shall."Said Vincent: 'He can cover like a corner and hit like a linebacker and he almost never makes a mental mistake. He's the best in the business, period.'"My my my, I sincerely believe I won this argument. Sucks when the guy you defend is defending the Joker, huh? As Ace Ventura once said, DO YOU LIKE THAT? HUH?what were you expecting him to say? i mean dawkins is vincent's own teammate, it's not like he's gonna go "man this guy blows, he's only worth the licks that he puts on the other guys, but aside from that just call him stonehands" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 what were you expecting him to say? i mean dawkins is vincent's own teammate, it's not like he's gonna go "man this guy blows, he's only worth the licks that he puts on the other guys, but aside from that just call him stonehands" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benimaru Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 i'm not arguing about woodson i'm just saying the quote about dawkins just might be a little biased considering the source is his own teammate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonwalk Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 "Said Vincent: 'He can cover like a corner and hit like a linebacker and he almost never makes a mental mistake. He's the best in the business, period.'" Actually, it was a misquote, Vincent actually said "...He's the best in the business, except for me." Let's just assume for a moment that Vincent honestly thinks he is better than Dawkins. Who would say that? "Hi, I'm better than him, and an asshole to boot!" I would hardly call the quote a KO. On the actual subject of who is better, I dunno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 ok joker, first of all, don't call me scotty. second of all, we're talking the difference between a cornerback and a safety. safeties generally aren't as good in coverage but hit harder (that is, unless we're talking about dick lane or rod woodson). dawkins is among the best safeties in the league, obviously since he's a pro bowler, but we're talking about corners. besides, dawkins is on my side of the argument and would never say anything bad about his game. and you can't use rod woodson on your side because I've praised him all along. however, if you come up with some new charles woodson info, I'll be happy to rebut it.scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 I took the liberty of finding some endearing comments about vincent by his friends, as a blatant attempt to propagandize the readers of this topic. "I've always said that Troy Vincent is one of the best, if not the best, corner in the league." - Andy Reid"Teams have a tough time matching up with the three-time Pro Bowler, Vincent, and a big physical corner like Taylor. The 1st round draft choice of the Miami Dolphins (7th selection overall) in 1992 he quickly became recognized as one of the NFL's best defenders."http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/4442/bios"Troy Vincent is as well rounded a player you’ll find in sports. He’s a professional on and off the field. Already one of the most respected players in the NFL, the personable Vincent appreciates his success as a professional athlete, and more importantly embraces his ability to provide for his community through civic and business leadership." -Ranks 6th in INTs (39) among active players -Named to his 4th consecutive Pro Bowl (1999-2002), while continuing to climb the Eagles all-time charts in INTs (6th-25) and INT yards (7th-313)-Was part of a secondary that allowed the lowest passing yards per game (179.0) in the NFC and the 2nd in the NFL in 2001. The unit also tied for the 2nd lowest passing TD total allowed in the league (13) "With four Pro Bowl appearances and 39 career interceptions, Vincent is a leader of one of the most feared defensive units in the NFL."http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/team/ ... jsp?id=275 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knobbe Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 I'd only been glancing over this topic and waited until today to read the whole thing. Here are some observations:**** New Orleans Saints screwed by Tecmo ******The New Orleans Saints weren't really screwed over by Tecmohttp://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1990.htmThey were 8-8 in 1990 while the Niners went 14-2. Vaughn Johnson and Sam Mills made the Pro Bowl, and were pretty decent players in Tecmo.**** Where they came up with the name and Logo ******http://www.neworleanssaints.com/faq.cfm#11**** Have the Dolphins been crap since 1972? ******No, they beat the crap out of the Vikings in 1973 for their second straight Super Bowl.They've had only two seasons where they were under .500, and their worst record in the NFL ever was 6-10.They made it to the Super Bowl in 1982 and 1984.The only teams they have a losing record to all time are the Jaguars (0-2), Giants (1-3), Jets (36-38-1), Raiders (11-18-1), Chargers (11-12), and Niners (4-5)**** Charles Woodson is the best cornerback in the NFL *****Right now this is kind of like saying Fred Taylor or Marshall Faulk is the best running back: they arguably have the talent but injuries have kept them off the field. You could make a good argument for how he will be the best corner back in the league right now.In my opinion, right now the best corner in the league is Ronde Barber though you could make an argument for quite a few other guys. Until he plays a full year again, it's not Charles Woodson. Injuries slowed him to the point where he was BURNED BY KEENAN MCCARDELL in the Super Bowl!!! The Buccs were looking to run plays towards and at C Wood because they knew he was the weakest link back there. No matter how good he is with his injuries he was the Mike Rumph of the Super Bowl. MIKE RUMPH!!As far as careers goes, Charles is the third best Woodson who needs to play about 5 more years to overtake Darren...***** Joker won this argument *****I don't usually call people out like this but when you've obviously not won an argument and patted yourself on the back for it....Joker asked for the names of corners better than Charles Woodson. One mentioned was Troy Vincent. Charles Woodson obviously is more talented physically. He should be the better cornerback but Troy Vincent is better mentally and has been to 5 straight Pro Bowls - if CWood can do what Troy Vincent as consistantly at Vincent's age, that would be taking it to Vincent's level. You argued that Bobby Taylor and/or Brian Dawkins are better than Vincent. This is just a little sub-arguement but just gets off the point main arguement. BTW, Brian Dawkins is a safety so he can't be the better cornerback. Troy Vincent made the All-Pro team while Bobby Taylor did not. However, not only have you not proved that CWood is better than Troy Vincent, you've also just proven that he'd be a nickel back if he played for the Eagles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 Yeah, that was basically what I did in my posts---prove Woodson is a nickel back. Glad you pay attention.I keep hearing it again and again, "Charles has the most talent, but..." Hello? And/Or/But my ass, he's the most talented cornerback in the league. I can not speed up the process to 5 years down the road like you already have with Troy Vincent. I'll change "the best cornerback in the NFL" to "the best cornerback in the NFL this year" and we'll continue this conversation somehow, someway throughout the season. ESPN just did a piece on the Raiders and Callahan said Woodson was having a great camp. I already knew this would happen, because I read an article about Charles a few weeks ago:Woodson said he's at full strength and eager to re-establish himself as a dominating cover men.``That's definitely my mindset,'' he said. ``I struggled last year, and I had problems with a toe injury the year before. Those things hindered my progress. If I had two good years on top of what I did in my early years, everybody would say I'm the best cornerback, hands down. I'm still one of the best, even with the injuries, but I've got to get back on top. That's where I belong.''Now, albeit every good corner is this confident, you can't be too quick to rule out a killer year from him, knowing he has so much to prove. So, even though I did say Vincent was a good corner (who WILL show his age this year), and even though you people think I said Dawkins was a better corner (I said he was the best player on their D, take a look back), I will let your stance on longevity be the deciding factor and let my boy show you this year who the best is.NOW...about those 49ers, the original topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knobbe Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 Yeah, that was basically what I did in my posts---prove Woodson is a nickel back. Glad you pay attention.I keep hearing it again and again, "Charles has the most talent, but..." Hello? And/Or/But my ass, he's the most talented cornerback in the league. I said Woodson would have been the nickel back for the Eagles. Glad you pay attention.Just because you have the most talent doesn't make you the best. Ask Fred Taylor.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 Yeah, that was basically what I did in my posts---prove Woodson is a nickel back. Glad you pay attention.I keep hearing it again and again, "Charles has the most talent, but..." Hello? And/Or/But my ass, he's the most talented cornerback in the league. I said Woodson would have been the nickel back for the Eagles. Glad you pay attention.Just because you have the most talent doesn't make you the best. Ask Fred Taylor....If you put Woodson as nickel back for the Eagles, I would love to play you. First of all, nickel packages don't happen too much outside of third down, and I wouldn't have any third downs cuz I would throw all over Troy's old ass on first and second. By the way, Troy Vincent has 3 pro bowls, correct? Charles has 4 out of 5 years playing. I tried to let the issue slide, but Mr. Site Administrator's pride got in the way. Let this year be the deciding factor if we can't settle on anything. Once troy makes some plays, feel free to post it in my face...but you better believe I will be posting more than you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nameless Loser Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Sam Mills is NOT a pretty decent player in Tecmo, he's just an average LB (at best), which is no way to treat a guy who made the Pro Bowl. If he were pretty decent, I wouldn't have so much trouble in pass coverage when Vaughan Johnson isn't getting it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo136 Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I keep hearing it again and again, "Charles has the most talent, but..." Hello? And/Or/But my ass, he's the most talented cornerback in the league. What Rod was trying to say is that if you're injured, you either get burnt or your butt is keeping the bench warm for your backups. That's how you can have lots of talent but not be the best. I'd rather have Troy Vincent or Barber at corner because I know that they won't get burnt because they have a bum ankle and I know they'll be on the field when I need them to be. Would you like to have Ken Griffey over Barry Bonds? What about Bill Walton over Kevin McHale? What about Fred Taylor over Emmitt Smith in their primes? While I have argued that cornerbacks can't be judged on their stats, that doesn't mean longevity doesn't count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benimaru Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 outside of swilling, the saints lbs are pretty much horrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knobbe Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 There is no pride involved here. You want a discussion and you also don't let things go.Charles Woodson was the most hyped defensive player to ever come out of college because he won the Heisman. I think it makes sense that he would be to a lot of Pro Bowls early in his career because he's a very good cornerback and Pro Bowls have a degree of popularity contest to them. Junior Seau was a Pro Bowler last year. He wasn't the best LB on his team.Troy Vincent is a very good cornerback. He's been a better cornerback than Charles Woodson for the last 2 years. Charles Woodson would be fortunate to have a career as good as Troy Vincent's. If Vincent is so old and so crappy that people love to throw at him, then why is he starting to make All-Pro and Pro Bowl teams at this point in his career when he wasn't before?If you put Woodson as nickel back for the Eagles, I would love to play you. First of all, nickel packages don't happen too much outside of third down, and I wouldn't have any third downs cuz I would throw all over Troy's old ass on first and second. By the way, Troy Vincent has 3 pro bowls, correct? Charles has 4 out of 5 years playing. I tried to let the issue slide, but Mr. Site Administrator's pride got in the way. Let this year be the deciding factor if we can't settle on anything. Once troy makes some plays, feel free to post it in my face...but you better believe I will be posting more than you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knobbe Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I think I was smoking crack or looking at VJ's numbers. Sam Mills was screwed, and he's a crappy Tecmo linebacker.Sam Mills is NOT a pretty decent player in Tecmo, he's just an average LB (at best), which is no way to treat a guy who made the Pro Bowl. If he were pretty decent, I wouldn't have so much trouble in pass coverage when Vaughan Johnson isn't getting it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nameless Loser Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Swilling and Vaughan Johnson definitely make you think better of Mills and Jackson because you don't have to rely on them as much, but those lower two LBs are not MAN usable in most situations, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 NFL.com Oak/STL Recap:Charles Woodson watched Kurt Warner's eyes, nimbly changing direction after Warner released his pass. The football hit Woodson's hands -- and even in an exhibition, the four-time Pro Bowl cornerback got a thrill. Woodson intercepted Warner on the Rams' first series, and Madre Hill rushed for 63 yards and a score as the Oakland Raiders beat St. Louis 7-6 in the preseason opener for both teams. Goodness gracious fellas, goodness FREAKIN gracious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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