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Okay, big ups to you for not hatin' on my boy. But you were right about the Elway thing, that did piss me off. Come on dude, let's be honest here. Who has the record for the most yards in a season? Most completions ever? Most yards ever? Most TDs in a season? Most TDs (by a QB) ever? Yes Marino was about as mobile as my grandmother, but the man was nuts and set about 25 more records than I listed. THIS is why I listed Bernie Parmalee...let's not forget Terry Kirby and Kareem Abdul Jabbar (or something like that), James Jackson, etc etc. Noooot the type of caliber you need for a Super Bowl. Hmm, lemme think...whoooo did John Elway have? Oh wait, that's right, frickin Terrell Davis. It's about the surrounding cast, and even when Marino had Duper and Clayton, Sammie Smith and Tony Paige ain't cuttin the mustard compared to Rod Smith, McCaffrey, Sharpe, and Davis. Mike Anderson was waiting in the wings just in case, as well. So I have made my argument. Why don't we just compromise on Montana??

I agree. But don't forget also when Marino was in his prime, they had one of the worst defenses in the league. Especially against the run. Then when they got the young, athletic, play making defense, Marino had no one on offense and Jimmy Johnson really handcuffed him.

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danny marino is the best qb to ever play the game aside from joe montana, he blows away elway by a landslide

Agreed. The Elway-Marino comparision only shows that winning a Super Bowl is an overrated when it comes to career greatness.

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montana was great, but I'm an old school guy. no matter what happens in the future I'll always be behind unitas. I'm prepared to give you montana at #2, although I'm also considering roger staubach. hmm, its been so long since I made my all time greats rom that I haven't thought of this for a while. my assessment of marino is a gifted passer but thats about it. my main beef with marino is he didn't win any superbowls for being as good of a player as he was. marino, because of his lack of a RB, has thrown more passes than anyone else in history (by far). plus, you can't knock elway for winning with a good running back, because who hasn't? and don't say tom brady because he's not in this discussion :( I'd agree that elway's performance in their 1st super bowl was average, but the 2nd win he was great (aka MVP). finally, lets look at rushing numbers. these guys played about the same amount of time, and marino has about 100 yards rushing and elway has 3400. elway didn't need a running back half the time because he was prepared to do it himself. I rest my case.

scott

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scott, we're talking about the quarterback position the way it was meant to be played, not this running around out of the pocket etc, when you think quarterback you think of passing and danny marino was a paragon of the ideal passer. he had a rocket arm, he threw for about a million yards and he also went to the super bowl his rookie year (even though he lost). when you talk strictly about playing quarterback by its fundamental definition (and that's passing) danny marino played it like no one else, except for, of course, montana

and i hate the niners

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ha, I knew when I came back to this forum that I would have an angry pro-marino response. I'm done with elway, I already stated what I liked about him, and honestly I don't know that he is better than marino. I just stated what all the marino-lovers overlook as nothing, and thats his legs. he may not be a better QB than marino, but by using your logic about "traditional" quarterbacks, then michael vick wouldn't be all that good. if someone wants to challenge me on john unitas then I'll debate that until the day I die because I feel he is the best, but as for elway I put in my two bits and I'm done.

scott

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I don't know. I think people forget vick has only had one season as a starter, and now he has a decent wide receiver with peerless price. I think he's a better passer than people give him credit for, although the times he does pass he is helped by the fact defenses shit their pants thinking about him taking off.

scott

ps - rob johnson is a worse pocket passer than michael vick

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my main beef with marino is he didn't win any superbowls for being as good of a player as he was.

You can get to the Super Bowl on the arm of your QB, but you can't win one like that. Football is a team game that depends on too many factors that determine the outcome of a game.

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Here is the underlying theme, guys. Back in the day, with Marino and Elway, only Randall Cunningham possibly spooked defenses with his running ability. Elway essentially snuck through teams all these years becuz he could pull a Jeff Garcia, run if youhave to run. Defenses didn't pay attention to this, and voila, 2 Super Bowls. The running game was very important back then, and we all know Marino didn't have shit. Nowadays we have Daunte, Donovan, and Mike Vick running all over the damn place, and Super Bowl winning teams have close to, if not the best defense in the league. The dynamic has changed. Ravens, Pats, Bucs--all about D. Marino was better than Elway as a passer, Elway was a better runner and HAD a better runner, and that is that. I'm done arguing except for the fact that Charles Woodson is the best CB in the game. Ha!Now think about it guys...he's healthy this year. If you were a coach, and you needed one shut-down corner, who would it be? Tell me honestly, don't say somebody different just to piss me off. Hell, we might want to start another topic on this one...

~Mistah J

p.s.---once you post your CB pick, I'll tell you how I feel about em. So if you say somebody horrible, be prepared for a tongue-lashing.

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troy vincent.

Dude, you are biased, you like the Jets and he played for them for years. Is he on the Eagles now or did he just go to the Jets? Too much green for me either way. Back in the day he was a good CB, very quick, but he's getting old. I asked for a shutdown, lockdown corner that would turn a game around. Wrong answer, try again.

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ty law, ronde barber, pat surtain, chris mcallister............

Okay, naming four people doesn't get you any closer to the right answer, bro. Ty Law is a fellow Michigan boy to Charles Woodson, and he is a good cover corner, but he is small and can easily get shoved off the line by receivers. Not to smartest corner, either. Chris McAlister is getting smarter, though, but he needs another year to be in the upper echelon of CBs. Good spped, too. As you know I love Patrick Surtain, and he's only gonna get better. He also needs a year or two to hit the big time corner level. Ronde Barber is already there, tho. I didn't think he was until this year, even though he had like 9 or 10 INTs last year. INTs isn't the only thing that matters, cuz Sam Madison had 9 a couple years ago and he's fallen from grace lately. That only shows QBs aren't afraid to throw it to your side. Ronde is one of those guys and only ended up with I think 2 INTs last year. But as good as Ronde is, I would have to go with Miself_2001 and pick Champ Bailey to be the bookend to Charles. Champ has the speed and the playmaking ability to scare receivers and quarterbacks alike, and he can play both ways, as can C Wood. Steve Spurrier has the nuts to do that, Callahan doesn't (which bothers me, but anyway). And just so y'all know, all this Chris Gamble talk at Ohio State will be hushed by D'Angelo Hall. Gamble is very talented, but he hasn't been a corner for very long and can get burned quite often. Keep an eye on VT's secondary and you'll be like daaaamn, who is that #4 guy? Oh wait, that asshole Joker from the tecmo posts was right. Dammit.

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troy vincent.

Dude, you are biased, you like the Jets and he played for them for years. Is he on the Eagles now or did he just go to the Jets? Too much green for me either way. Back in the day he was a good CB, very quick, but he's getting old. I asked for a shutdown, lockdown corner that would turn a game around. Wrong answer, try again.

Troy Vincent played for the Dolphins a few years ago. Not the Jets.

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Good call dude, I was thinking of Victor Green. And he was on the Jets and was traded to the Pats. Got em mixed up, whoops. They were both good too, by the way. Can't believe I messed up a Fins DB...I should be tied to a seat and forced to watch a Titans game...

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yeah! you should be praising me for being UNBIASED. C. woodson has to prove himself for longer than one season to be able to rise to troy vincent's level. I can't be biased on the bears since they haven't had a good cornerback since donnell woolford and the jets haven't since bill baird. if you want to see the best shutdown corner of all time, watch some old dick lane footage, may he rest in peace.

scott

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yeah! you should be praising me for being UNBIASED. C. woodson has to prove himself for longer than one season to be able to rise to troy vincent's level. I can't be biased on the bears since they haven't had a good cornerback since donnell woolford and the jets haven't since bill baird. if you want to see the best shutdown corner of all time, watch some old dick lane footage, may he rest in peace.

scott

Charles has to rise to Troy Vincent's level? Are you fucking kidding me?

Became first Raider to start all 16 league games in the defensive backfield since 1971 (Jack Tatum at safety)...Led all defensive backs with 64 tackles, third best among defenders and tied with Eric Allen for team lead in interceptions with five, returning one 46 yards for touchdown on October 4 at Arizona...Led Raiders in passes defensed with 21...His five interceptions were the highest among Raider rookies since Charles Phillips' six in 1975...Also contributed two forced fumbles.

That whole big paragraph was about his first year only. A rookie did all that. And yes, over the years he has been hurt by turf toe, a broken shoulder, and a broken leg. You name me anybody else who would play 2 weeks after a broken leg, which he did. Eddie George had turf toe and he just plain sucks now. Charles plays through the pain most of the time, and his coaches don't even want him out there, but he's a gamer. He is 100% healthy now, so watch what he does this year and enjoy that plate full of crow.

On another note, your Jets better make Pennington light it up to Curtis Conway and Santana Moss, cuz they are both on my fantasy team this year. Hook a brotha up, I always lose in the playoffs and need to get over the hump.

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yeah! you should be praising me for being UNBIASED. C. woodson has to prove himself for longer than one season to be able to rise to troy vincent's level. I can't be biased on the bears since they haven't had a good cornerback since donnell woolford and the jets haven't since bill baird. if you want to see the best shutdown corner of all time, watch some old dick lane footage, may he rest in peace.

scott

Charles has to rise to Troy Vincent's level? Are you fucking kidding me?

Became first Raider to start all 16 league games in the defensive backfield since 1971 (Jack Tatum at safety)...Led all defensive backs with 64 tackles, third best among defenders and tied with Eric Allen for team lead in interceptions with five, returning one 46 yards for touchdown on October 4 at Arizona...Led Raiders in passes defensed with 21...His five interceptions were the highest among Raider rookies since Charles Phillips' six in 1975...Also contributed two forced fumbles.

That whole big paragraph was about his first year only. A rookie did all that. And yes, over the years he has been hurt by turf toe, a broken shoulder, and a broken leg. You name me anybody else who would play 2 weeks after a broken leg, which he did. Eddie George had turf toe and he just plain sucks now. Charles plays through the pain most of the time, and his coaches don't even want him out there, but he's a gamer. He is 100% healthy now, so watch what he does this year and enjoy that plate full of crow.

On another note, your Jets better make Pennington light it up to Curtis Conway and Santana Moss, cuz they are both on my fantasy team this year. Hook a brotha up, I always lose in the playoffs and need to get over the hump.

Just not against Miami. That is the only thing that sucks about FF. You have to route for jets players. And I have to route for the bears a little cause I have the A-Train :(

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the point is that woodson has to continue to play well because he's only been around since 1998 and has been injured for a large part of his career. no one is questioning his tenacity, but injury has hampered his natural abilities for too much time. troy vincent has played for 12 years and is still among the elite cornerbacks in the game. besides, vincent can't touch any of your statistics because he's never played for the raiders and all you mentioned were raiders records. next thing you'll be saying CW is better than willie brown or lester hayes (which I might add would be blasphemy). to be a great player you must add longevity to your talent, otherwise randy moss would be the best WR ever, not jerry rice. check out vincent's career stats, they're nothing to sneeze at:

career stats: 39 INT for 597 yards, 3 TD

regarding your jets picks, I honestly don't know how they will do. conway hasn't been nearly as good as he was with the bears so there will be a lot of pressure on moss. this is bullcrap. espn.com says he's 5'10". santana moss is no 5'10", I'd say he's about 5'8". they say wayne chrebet is 5'10" also. I dunno joker, hopefully pennington will be able to carry the team for their lack of talent at WR without laveranues coles.

scott

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