Actions/Outcomes and how they are affected by attributes

[Eric]

deadfaulkner mentioned that some theorized that HP can affect a player's ability to force a fumble, but that the evidence isn't there.  In my experience, this is true that HP does not seem to affect the ability to cause a FF.

 

In busting up a grapple - I think that HP does affect a player's ability to bust apart a grapple, but I think that the players' HP involved in the grapple may not come into play.  I'm currently in a DEF Only season with the worst rated players on TecSpectre's spreadsheet.  At least four times this season I have grappled a QB with a weak LB (David Braxton) and a RB that I knew for a fact had a higher HP than either of us (and probably the two of us combined) got ragdolled or flattened when ramming into us.  The most recent example was Ironhead.

 

Do you think an attribute affects a player's ability to recover a fumble?  At first I said no.  But then I remember two recent incidents that occurred almost identically.  Both plays were against Cris Carter.  He caught the ball and my COM-controlled defender dive-tackled him.  Both times he insta-fumbled.  Both times I had 2-3 defenders standing on the ball (although they weren't moving - as if they didn't recognize the fumble?).  Both times CC stood up from the dive tackle almost immediately and was nearly instantly awarded the fumble recovery.  So I guess I have two questions.  What is the attribute that decided how quickly a downed player gets back up?  And do you think any attribute played into CC's ability to pick up the fumble so easily?

[bruddog]

None of these situations are affected by attributes on the NES version at least. They are all random number compares.

[deadfaulkner]

Although Tecmo III certainly provides some frustrating, and often mysterious, situations, I am entirely confident that there are no hidden attributes that control things like jumping for catches, causing and recovering fumbles, recovery speed after getting knocked down.  Again, you can't prove a negative from observation, so I guess such attributes are technically possible, but I haven't seen any compelling evidence that it's there.

 

If I'm understanding you right about HP, I think you're spot-on.  We know for sure that there are randomness algorithms for events like popcorning, coverage catches, and fumbling.  But having higher HP tips the popcorning/grappling randomness algorithm in the favor of the guy with higher HP.  For example, Ironhead may have popcorned Braxton on one play, and then turned around on the very next play, same physical condition, and not done.

 

I read the specifics about NES TSB somewhere, and IIRC, in that game a player has a chance to popcorn if he has a) above 38 HP (or HP level 6 out of 15) and either higher HP than his opponent OR is within 3 HP levels of his opponent (i.e. 44 HP can theoretically popcorn 63, etc).  The chance increases as the HP discrepancy tips in the player's favor, but even 100 HP won't popcorn 6 HP every time, at least not in theory.  My numbers may be off, but the idea is not. And in my experience, there's nothing to suggest it doesn't work exactly this way in TSB III.

 

Similar randomness algorithms are at play in a grapple, but you can multiply your HP number in that algorithm by tapping (though not nearly as much as you can in NES). 

 

All sorts of glitchy stuff happens on fumbles in TSB III, and in my opinion most of these relate to to possession.  It's as if the AI has a hard time reading whether possession is had or not had (probably leading to the defenders standing around like idiots after a fumble, which does happen all the time).  Also, the notorious post-recovery possession glitch (where the defense recovers, but the screen suddenly isn't scrolling right and then on the next play the offensive team has retained possession) seems to happen when the defense recovers quickly after the fumble - it does not seem to happen often (or maybe not at all) when the ball bounces around for a bit.  So I think there's a second or so delay where Tecmo can become "confused" about who has, and who is supposed to have, the ball. 

Edited January 31, 2014 by deadfaulkner

[TecSpectre]

I would be extremely inclined to say that HP does impact forcing fumbles in TSB3...

 

I have played a long time using a team with very little HP and players that don't have HP (cornerbacks not named Rod Woodson) and fumbles are extremely scarce. While I've noticed that teams with big safeties and LBs cause significantly more fumbles.

 

I have 10 seasons of data from the NFTGL (turnovers per team, per season, even broken down by game) that support this.

[bruddog]

It's entirely possible they changed this for TSB3. 

 

Ya there would be a way to analyze the data to see if it is statistically significant  One other thing to be careful about is that often teams with lower HP are also slower so they won't get to as many fumbles and won't make as many tackles. 

 

Ideally you'd want to see the correlation between fumbles forced (not recovered) per tackle and average LB/DB HP for each team

[Eric]

I think it's because the guys with big HP are also getting to and making a lot of tackles.

 

Here are some of my records and I'll include sacks and total tackles for context.

 

Player - FF (sacks - total tackles)

 

C Bennett - 10 (59-237)

Coryatt - 13 (108-313)

Solomon - 8 (71-294)

V Brown - 15 (97-351)

Mo Lewis - 20 (105-329)

Seth - 9 (52-305)

Tuggle - 16 (63-317)

M Brooks - 18 (68-362)

Paup - 7 (70-303)

K Harvey - 15 (69-349)

Pepper - 16 (62-299)

Al Smith - 21 (54-305)

James Williams (Jax) - 6 (21-201)

K Greene - 24 (177-437)

W Marshall - 7 (34-262)

Spielman - 10 (100-358)

W Simmons - 7 (36-260)

Del Rio - 7 (24-246)

Nickerson - 15 (85-368)

Dante - 14 (62-343)

Seau - 11 (51-337)

Derrick - 15 (97-339)

Frederickson - 7 (42-210)

Talley - 18 (56-335)

K Greene - 19 (146-380)

Rufus - 5 (53-245)

Conlan - 7 (73-305)

K Norton - 17 (153-364)

K Greene - 13 (67-299)

Glenell - 9 (84-224)

Seth - 10 (119-329)

Nickerson - 20 (113-381)

Seau - 15 (127-380)

Butkus - 16 (33-316)

Seth - 14 (146-390)

Pepper - 7 (38-224)
James Williams (Jax) - 14 (78-246)

Thomas Beer - 8 (82-178)

C Bennett - 19 (146-350)

B Cox - 8 (106-279)

Mo Lewis - 17 (170-433)

Seth - 19 (152-383)

R Jones - 13 (89-278)

M Brooks - 21 (162-377)

Byron Evans - 16 (135-380)

K Harvey - 20 (90-332)

A Collins - 17 (161-349)

Pepper - 12 (136-371)

James Williams (Jax) - 14 (91-263)

Vinson Smith - 13 (107-275)

W Simmons - 13 (105-313)

Broderick Thomas - 7 (108-370)

Nickerson - 20 (153-404)
Derrick - 26 (152-366)

Frederickson - 9 (104-261)

Tuggle 16 (152-404)

Rufus - 18 (126-304)

Conlan - 12 (95-270)

K Norton - 22 (161-405)

Bickett - 14 (103-280)

Conlan - 12 (86-298)

Frederickson - 18 (103-253)

Vinson Smith - 17 (84-254)

W Simmons - 16 (120-346)

Elijah Alexander - 8 (121-322)

W Simmons - 11 (109-322)

C Bennett - 16 (136-355)

Elijah Alexander - 11 (119-293)

Elijah Alexander - 7 (131-330)

 

Here are seasons where I also recorded some DL stats:

 

Glenell - 3 (44-134)

B Minter - 3 (20-63)

R Mack - 1 (15-53)

 

T Wooden - 9 (97-297)

Tez - 4 (56-84)

 

Dean Wells - 12 (85-227)

Tez - 8 (50-69)

 

Mo Lewis - 13 (81-325)

Reggie - 3 (36-52)

 

W Moss - 11 (91-259)

Tez - 2 (40-69)

 

W Moss - 9 (88-259)

Tez - 5 (45-76)

 

Bickett - 6 (63-257)

Tez - 5 (65-104)

 

Wooden - 12 (93-256)

Tez - 5 (41-58)

 

Wooden - 10 (76-279)

Tez - 2 (48-88)

Bickett - 15 (105-288)

Tez - 6 (39-58)

 

Del Rio - 13 (80-264)

Randy White - 2 (41-51)

Howie Long - 1 (24-37)

Bruce Smith - 2 (23-74)

 

Chad Brown - 12 (77-235)

Randy White - 2 (33-59)

Howie Long - 1 (32-49)

[DrunkenGamer]

At some point i hope to join in on this test. I believe we found 2 sliders for ints and receptions. On for running and one for standing... but i have to go back and verify. We found these when i knew squat about assm. So i need to go back and study these in greater detail.

[TecSpectre]

I can believe there are two sliders for ints. I have found that you have a greater chance of success getting an int when still in motion.

[DrunkenGamer]

I can believe there are two sliders for ints. I have found that you have a greater chance of success getting an int when still in motion.

Im pretty sure thats why. Im crazy busy with hacking and my real job. But i hope to get back into the ratings. I have some more ideals to apply to their usage.

[DrunkenGamer]

There are also hidden sliders for ball speed and height on zipped passes. For lobs the coding is the same for speed and height. At least on the original. I hacked it so that lobs use ratings also now. Now not all qbs can just throw deep. I hope to get all this down on paper.

[Eric]

If I'm understanding you right about HP, I think you're spot-on.  We know for sure that there are randomness algorithms for events like popcorning, coverage catches, and fumbling.  But having higher HP tips the popcorning/grappling randomness algorithm in the favor of the guy with higher HP.  For example, Ironhead may have popcorned Braxton on one play, and then turned around on the very next play, same physical condition, and not done.

 

I read the specifics about NES TSB somewhere, and IIRC, in that game a player has a chance to popcorn if he has a) above 38 HP (or HP level 6 out of 15) and either higher HP than his opponent OR is within 3 HP levels of his opponent (i.e. 44 HP can theoretically popcorn 63, etc).  The chance increases as the HP discrepancy tips in the player's favor, but even 100 HP won't popcorn 6 HP every time, at least not in theory.  My numbers may be off, but the idea is not. And in my experience, there's nothing to suggest it doesn't work exactly this way in TSB III.

 

Actually, what I was referring to with the grapple was this.  If you ram your guy into a grapple, does the HP of the two grapplers come into play, or are all grapples equal?

 

If Toi Cook runs headlong into a grapple between David Braxton and Scott Zolak is it just as likely to result in a tackle as when he runs into a grapple between Seau and Ironhead?