Accuracy of Passing, Quickness - What Do They Do?

[Nameless Loser]

Actually, there is a reason for having "Phantom Health" as well as the "hidden" return stat. If you think about it, what is an upset? When the other team should have no real chance of winning but does anyway. What does "Phantom Health" do? Takes a bunch of players in BAD condition and turns them into better ones, while maintaining some of the ability of the EXCELLENT players. The "bad way" then becomes a wildcard.

Plus, when you take a look at the NFC, if that's the "stronger conference", then teams, provided my suspicion that "Phantom Health" players in EXCELLENT maintain most of their ability on the "bad way", would have more of a chance to beat the AFC teams, who will always be on the "good way" in inter-conference play.

Maybe?

I have to admit, these are sort of sad days. I mean, I always thought it was pretty cool that Tecmo had some crazy quirks to it, but it's starting to look like there was just some seriously poor programing going on.

I mean think about it, it accidently loads the wrong MaxSpeed on kickoff and punt returns, meaning all returners get the same MS, and the SS's attributes have to be changed accordingly. Quickness and Pass Accuracy do absolutely nothing. Team 2's player conditions have the reverse effect of what they are supposed to do. I mean there is a hell of a lot that is technically wrong with this game.

Not that this will really change how much I play it, but those guys sure screwed up a lot of stuff in what was supposed to be a polished finished project. Maybe it was rushed along...

[Nameless Loser]

You guys have been doing some good thinking on AOP and Quickness. But maybe there are some flaws in our reasoning to this point.

1. If "Quickness" affects how much coke the CPU snorts, and it is determined directly after a game is played (right when it saves back the game stats and records), then the tests I've seen up here wouldn't detect it. We would have to measure it not only in the game previous, but also in the prior games for the given two teams. After all, isn't the amount of coke the CPU snorts the same even if you reset the NES and play the game again? This would suggest that it's determined before the pre-game even starts. And it is systematic based on record at least. Also, this would hold true if they were computed on transition from the previous game in the week.

2. Accuracy of Passing doesn't seem to do a whole lot. Never been a big fan of either of these ratings. But again, if there is some sort of "magic number" that the game computes for a given team to determine the level of BS in the game, maybe AOP is in there with Quickness. (Maybe each player is given a particular rating for the game, but I _seriously_ doubt that).

Maybe, if a team is given ratings based on passing game, running game, special teams, and defense, the passing game number would depend partly on AOP.

MAYBE this is what the "conditions" values are in the save state. Maybe they have information about both the nominal condition and the crack. Such as (I know this doesn't work, but for the purposes of illustration):

0x00 = BAD, no crack

0x10 = AVERAGE, no crack

0x11 = AVERAGE, low crack

0x13 = AVERAGE, high crack

This would explain why the Giants and the Steelers are so EVIL later in the season compared to other teams, because their Quickness on defense would help determine their crack number.

To me, a key point is to find some point at which the saved state "desyncs". That is, when can we save state to where it will desync the destination game? THE PROBLEM IS, if the effects of AOP/Quickness are precomputed, and based upon the value of a random variable, we won't be able to tell what effect any changes have before the game.

Example to all this:

Scenario 1

End of Week 1 Game GIA. vs. S.F. - GIA win 21-10.

1-0 record * * * = crack number, saved back to the SRAM (one value per team).

End of Week 1 Game PHX. vs. RAMS - PHX win 7-3.

0-1 record * * * = crack number, saved back to the SRAM

Week 2, GIA vs. PHX, kickoff:

GIA's crack number compares to RAMS' crack number - PHX enjoys a small advantage

Scenario 2

Same as above, except that the values are computed right after the game previously played in Week 2's schedule. A point to note is that because the shuffling of the schedule is random, maybe there is something to this. Maybe not. But that's one more factor to deal with. I don't know if anyone has studied the effects of being first/last/in between on the schedule.

To me, I think we have to settle it by trying to find when/if AOP/Quickness are loaded from the ROM into memory, and then seeing if any calculations use those addresses. Especially since bruddog states that it might have an effect in COM vs. COM.

Another way we could see what's going on is to have a map of the whole save state and then we might have a better idea about precomputation. But that still wouldn't settle it necessarily, would it?

Something else that is bothering me: we are doing these tests in NESticle right? But NESticle doesn't emulate Mapper 4 properly at all. If AOP and Quickness calculations are affected by the bugs in Mapper 4 (perhaps because the emulator is reading off the Pass Control value instead?), maybe that is skewing the results.

[cres]

Good thoughts.

Also, what if Quickness helps determine what condition a player becomes? (For instance players with more quickness are more likely to become GOOD or EXCELLENT than other players). Let's say the in-game calculation of condition is basic, but to determine what condition the player will become at the end of the game perhaps there is a calculation based on this. Has anyone checked the conditions of all of the players in the movie files after the games?

[bruddog]

Hmm I think the condition your player is in at the start of the 4th quarter is the condition he will be in after the game but I could be wrong.

[kevinwmsn]

Have all tests been done in nesticle only? Maybe they should also be tried in fceultra, at least that emulator gets the sound right.

[LouisOliver]

Clearly, quickness cannot have a positive effect on condition as Wayne Haddix is always in BAD.

[qb feagles]

thats insane, just blows the mind, and i have seen a lt block a punt not excellent

[cuppettcj]

It is my understanding that Pass Control effects the path of the ball, not the catch in coverage. Of course, this is important, since the ball has to reach the receiver first.

My guess is that it was originally intended to be that way, but the programmers made a mistake in the original game and instead of referencing Pass Control to determine if passes make it to their targets and Accuracy of Passing to determine if a pass is completed or intercepted in coverage, they accidentally referenced Pass Control for both. It appears from Bad Moon's tests that the programmers corrected their mistake in subsequent versions of the game with regard to those abilities.

I find it intriguing, though, that nobody can figure out what Quickness does in later versions of the game. This makes me wonder if Nameless Loser is right, at least with regard to our reasoning being off. If none of us can detect what Quickness does in any of the TSB versions, then maybe Quickness was not a programming mistake (like punt blocks) but rather a subtle ability that we're unable to detect at this point. I feel that is more likely than Tecmo completely ignoring this ability in all of its TSB releases. I like Loser's idea of recording more than just one game. And just to be safe, someone needs to do it on an emulator other than Nesticle.

Have all tests been done in nesticle only? Maybe they should also be tried in fceultra, at least that emulator gets the sound right.

I wish we could, but unfortunately FCE Ultra doesn't have a movie record feature at this point. Hopefully if will in the near future, because it's my favorite emulator.

[Bad Moon Rison]

Although a good amount of evidence indicates AOP and Quickness do nothing, it's good to see that there is still more questioning to why this might be. You may be absolutely right to suggest that the original programmers had intended to have two separate attributes, but instead combined them into one. Perhaps trying one of the other methods of testing mentioned above will shed more light on it.

[Bleak5170]

Has anyone ever tested to see if these two attributes mean anything in later versions of TSB?

[looked]

I have a guess as to what quickness does, just no way to test it. When a player is thrown, some players get up fairly quickly, and others sit on their ass, and shake heads for a while. Not to mention getting up after a missed slide. Maybe quickness is how quick a player gets up from the ground.

[Denny]

I thought Quickness has no effect on the player's ability whatsoever? What i'd like to know is what does Avoid Block effect? I've heard that it determines how long a QB holds the ball before throwing, other's say it's what it is, an avoid block attribute.

[looked]

I thought Quickness has no effect on the player's ability whatsoever? What i'd like to know is what does Avoid Block effect? I've heard that it determines how long a QB holds the ball before throwing, other's say it's what it is, an avoid block attribute.

It probably effects something, we just don't understand what it does yet. 13 years later we are still learning things about this game, so maybe it's just a matter of time. I'm like the others, and I don't see why they would put in a stat that does nothing.

The avoid block does exactly what it says. It determines the chance of the pass getting blocked when a defensive player jumps or when you get the cinematic of flying at the QB. It definately has an effect. Try doing some passing with Jeff Hostetler, it's blocked almost every time there is a chance.

[Nameless Losers Plaything]

... After reading Leif Power's (aka Nameless Loser) FAQ ...

Oh, the irony.

[dokilen]

Just ask one of the original programmers. There has to be a few of them still wondering around Japan.

[bgboud2]

They still do nothing 10 years later.

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