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Coin Toss Selection

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48 minutes ago, davefmurray said:

We've heard your opinion. I understand your logic. We've explained our position. The outcome is not going to change.

 

THE TECMO UNIVERSE IS NOT GOING TO END.

 

cool. bounce it around with the tecmo elite and think about it for the future.  I will keep thinking about it, too.  

 

I am very thankful that Lincoln 2k17 is keeping the coin flip the way it has always been.  Because I won't feel like the coin flip means very much and I need to win it every time.  

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12 hours ago, davefmurray said:

We've heard your opinion. I understand your logic. We've explained our position. The outcome is not going to change.

 

THE TECMO UNIVERSE IS NOT GOING TO END.

 

Running a 256 person tournament is completely different from a sub 64 man. I would run it that way in Madison because it's simpler and it's marginally different.

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What is the domain of matchup where one might choose P1 over picking the two teams.  I'm struggling to think of many matchups where I wouldn't want to pick my team.

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Since everyone would prefer to be P1, there are really two types of people: those that strongly prefer to call the match-up (I am in this camp), and those that strongly prefer to not call the match-up (I can't imagine any "upper-level" players in this camp, but maybe there are... and the rules shouldn't only cater to that group anyway).

 

Under old Madison rules (and buck's equivalent system), a player that hates calling match-ups might get double-boned by "winning" the toss (they have to call the match-up and they might get stuck with P2 as well).  A player that likes to call match-ups is guaranteed to get a match-up call or P1.  I understand the complaints.

 

Under the new system, a player that prefers to call the match-up automatically gets double-boned by losing the coin-flip (they don't get to call and they are P2).  A player that hates calling match-ups gets a push regardless of who wins the toss. 

 

Here is my suggestion for a more equitable system where neither side gets double-boned.  There are two choices:  1) choose your controller or 2) choose who has to pick the match-up  (the person who doesn't pick the match-up will get their choice of team).  Whoever wins the coin toss gets to choose one of these and the coin toss loser gets to make the other choice. 

 

Here, if I strongly prefer calling the match-up and I lose the toss, I at least get player 1 and my choice of team as a consolation (I get my 1st and 3rd ranked choices or 2nd and 3rd ranked choices).  If I hate calling the match-up and lose the toss, even if homeboy forces to call the match-up I get P1 (again, I get 1st and 3rd or 2nd and 3rd ranked choices).  Neither type of person would get stuck getting their 3rd choice only.  Coin toss winner gets their pick of the litter and the loser gets the other two.  The coin-toss winner could still get two of his three preferences if the players have different tastes. Nobody gets double-boned. 

 

At Kumite we used the new Madison rules (essentially), but we needed to save some time because our process of drawing ping-pong balls each round was lengthy.  This year we are not drawing ping-pong balls and there will be a coin flip, so O'Dell and I will have to determine how it goes down.  If this system has any glaring flaws that I missed please let me know! 

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6 hours ago, toolie said:

 

 

Here is my suggestion for a more equitable system where neither side gets double-boned.  There are two choices:  1) choose your controller or 2) choose who has to pick the match-up  (the person who doesn't pick the match-up will get their choice of team).  Whoever wins the coin toss gets to choose one of these and the coin toss loser gets to make the other choice. 

 

 

 

am I reading this right? I am not sure about the flow chart of what happens at "c" as I listed below:

 

guy who "wins" coin-flip - 

 

a. says "I will call matchup", then "loser" either picks a team from winners matchup or loser takes P1 (same as old system)

 

b. says "I want you to call the matchup", then "loser" picks a matchup, and winner can pick a team and take P2, or just say he wants P1. (same as old system, sort of, except the winner "defers", but the P1 tradeoff still (rightly) exists, unlike qb_browns new system)

 

c. says "I want P1", then what?  

 

Edited by buck

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4 hours ago, buck said:

 

am I reading this right? I am not sure about the flow chart of what happens at "c" as I listed below:

 

guy who "wins" coin-flip - 

 

a. says "I will call matchup", then "loser" either picks a team from winners matchup or loser takes P1 (same as old system)

 

b. says "I want you to call the matchup", then "loser" picks a matchup, and winner can pick a team and take P2, or just say he wants P1. (same as old system, sort of, except the winner "defers", but the P1 tradeoff still (rightly) exists, unlike qb_browns new system)

 

c. says "I want P1", then what?  

 

 

If winner goes a) or b), then coin flip loser gets his choice of controller AND a ) his pick of team from the winner's matchup choice or b ) has to call the matchup, and then coin flip winner gets his choice of team. 

 

If winner goes c), then loser either calls the matchup (and winner gets his choice of team) or forces coin flip winner to call the matchup and loser gets his choice of team.

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I was in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mind set when the coin toss rule change came about. Was I a fan of it? Not really but I'm a mediocre Tecmo player so my opinion means little in comparison to the more elite players. Will it stop me from attending? No, shit I attend a tournament annually that allows WRs to play RB.

 

The rule change will bother some of us but not all and believe it or not some players may not even notice that a rule change has been made.

 

I will most likely end up play with the old rules due to my alcohol consumption fogging up my thoughts.

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still been thinking about this, trying to digest what qb_browns has wrote (regarding the current madison coin flip rule), and I understand how you came to this conclusion, your assumptions and analysis aren't too bad....I just think that the coin-flip winner being assured P1 AND being able to call the matchup provides too much unearned advantage to the coin-flip winner and is unfair to the coin-flip loser.  

 

I personally believe that calling the matchup is real important strategically...and the only reason that I would not want to call a matchup is because I am running out of them!  

(I understand that maybe some tournament participants may have anxiety disorders or whatever that causes them to have a panic attack because they have to pick a matchup.  I am not one of these, but my solution below takes these people (and people who are "running low" on matchup ideas) into consideration.)

 

I believe that the best (fairest) solution is to give the coin flip "winner" the following 2 options:

 

1. call matchup, just like "old times", and the loser can pick team from matchup or P1.

the winner can pick 2 teams that he is comfortable playing with.  then he might also get P1, if the loser picks a team.  

why is this option fair?  

advantage: the winner gets to pick teams that he wants to play with, or another way to look at it, the winner keeps the loser from being able to play with certain teams. 

tradeoff: the loser can take his pick of team (in case they are not really even, or maybe he just loves a certain team) or the loser can take P1 if the matchup call is deemed equal/fair to him.

 

2. defer matchup to "loser", and then it's just like "old times" again, but the "loser" now calls the matchup and the "winner" can pick team or P1.

why is this option fair?  

advantage:  the winner can essentially get P1 if that's what he really wants, and also avoid calling a matchup (solving the "common complaint" mentioned by qb_browns).  

tradeoff: the loser gets to pick two teams that he is comfortable with, but he can get P1 depending on what the winner wants.

 

how about that?  this way, everyone will want to win the coin toss, but there won't be any real advantages automatically assigned by the coin-flip.  the strategy component is still very real.

 

 

 

Edited by buck

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1 hour ago, red98sethuthut said:

. I.liked.it the way it was but i can adjust to new rules. Defering the matchup is just plain cowardly. You win the toss u man up and call a matchup. The tecmogods will prefer option 1. 

Very well said

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I never understood why anyone gives a shit about P1.  Its 100% mental (outside of the onside kick, and if you win the game you don't need an onside kick).  Practice some games at P2, plus you're playing defense at P1 direction, which IMO I think is the bigger advantage if you like P1 so much.

Agree with Louis--it is a Tecmo God slap in the face to defer--do it at your own peril.  Pick the matchup you turds--or, here's a novel concept, pick a matchup that will make your opponent pick the team you DONT want!!  Then you win-win-win.  Strategy/matchups is key in tournaments--I honestly can't even remember what controller I had, but I remember who called the matchups.

Buck I hope to have a beer at Lincoln with you and calm you down.  That is until I play you--then after winning the coin toss I will say "wow what a huge advantage this is for me" the entire game to destroy you mentally.  haha

 

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On 1/17/2017 at 10:22 AM, toolie said:

Here is my suggestion for a more equitable system where neither side gets double-boned.  There are two choices:  1) choose your controller or 2) choose who has to pick the match-up  (the person who doesn't pick the match-up will get their choice of team).  Whoever wins the coin toss gets to choose one of these and the coin toss loser gets to make the other choice. 

 

For future reference, it makes a bit more sense to list pick matchup as 1) and choose controller as 2) as most people will want to control the matchup pick either way and player one is a consolation prize.

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I also prefer the old Madison way, but I can adjust. I don't know why someone wouldn't want to pick the matchup. Against a newb or an elite player - it's the one thing you can get a slight mental advantage of - you can pick teams that you know you play well with. Rams, Dolphins, Eagles, Bears... Or, you can just say, "f*ck it" and go Jets/garbage. The only time this could be considered a disadvantage would be if you run out of matchups because you are amazing enough to make it to the Elite 8, at that point I'm guessing most of the elite players like picking their own matchups anyway.

 

I wonder if there would be a way we could do a sort of informal poll to get an idea for later what people prefer? Hell, I can do the poll at the registration table or whatever, I'm a former journalist so I remember how to sit around and ask random people dumb questions for a "People on the Street" voice piece.

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11 minutes ago, Super Duper said:

I also prefer the old Madison way, but I can adjust. I don't know why someone wouldn't want to pick the matchup.

 

Just to give two examples:

1) Mort recently placed 2nd at the Tundra Bowl. In his post tourney interview, he talked about how losing the coin toss every game really helped him. (He didn't have to call the matchup.)

2) Joeygats in discussing his upcoming Thunderdome run states that if he is to make a deep run he needs to lose as many coin tosses as possible. (So he doesn't have to call the matchup.)

 

TSB's elite do not want to call the matchup.

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9 minutes ago, davefmurray said:

 

Just to give two examples:

1) Mort recently placed 2nd at the Tundra Bowl. In his post tourney interview, he talked about how losing the coin toss every game really helped him. (He didn't have to call the matchup.)

2) Joeygats in discussing his upcoming Thunderdome run states that if he is to make a deep run he needs to lose as many coin tosses as possible. (So he doesn't have to call the matchup.)

 

TSB's elite do not want to call the matchup.

 

This is probably one of the many reasons why I'm not elite.   :/

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7 hours ago, davefmurray said:

 

Just to give two examples:

1) Mort recently placed 2nd at the Tundra Bowl. In his post tourney interview, he talked about how losing the coin toss every game really helped him. (He didn't have to call the matchup.)

2) Joeygats in discussing his upcoming Thunderdome run states that if he is to make a deep run he needs to lose as many coin tosses as possible. (So he doesn't have to call the matchup.)

 

TSB's elite do not want to call the matchup.

 

Fascinating, I bank my Midwest Tecmo IX win on being able to call the last 5 matchups against opponents I know very well. It gave me an edge making sure I could utilize my skillset against theirs. 

 

6 hours ago, Super Duper said:

 

This is probably one of the many reasons why I'm not elite.   :/

 

The number one reason for anyone not being elite... is rooming with that sandbagging bastard @segathonsov!!!

 

Step up your prep. 

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7 hours ago, davefmurray said:

 

Just to give two examples:

1) Mort recently placed 2nd at the Tundra Bowl. In his post tourney interview, he talked about how losing the coin toss every game really helped him. (He didn't have to call the matchup.)

2) Joeygats in discussing his upcoming Thunderdome run states that if he is to make a deep run he needs to lose as many coin tosses as possible. (So he doesn't have to call the matchup.)

 

TSB's elite do not want to call the matchup.

The gats case is a bit different in that you have to choose from a small subset of pre-determined matches. 

 

The more you know the player and the bigger the tap differential the more you want to call the match to try and help tilt things your way. 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, bruddog said:

The gats case is a bit different in that you have to choose from a small subset of pre-determined matches. 

The more you know the player and the bigger the tap differential the more you want to call the match to try and help tilt things your way.

 

But, not different in the outcome. He wants the same result for the same reasons, subset or not.

 

We've had thediscussion with multiple people about this. The consensus was almost unanimous. It is found to be more advantageous to lose the coin toss.

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 gats wants to lose the tosses because he cant choose his own but from the not ideal subset otherwise hed rather win it vs someone like regulator. 

 

To be clear I'm fine with the format.

 

If I had great tapping my preferences would be different but as it stands

 

1. Vs an unknown I'd rather lose coin toss and get to choose team since its more likely their matchup selelection will have one team that I feel is clearly better. One minor caveat is the point differential as it can be less likely to rack up a big differential in certain matchups.  

 

2. Vs a ~ even tapper I'd mostly indifferent as I'd feel confident using any team and thus

would  again rather aim to choose the slightly better team

 

3. Vs a great tapper or imbalanced style player I 100% want to win the match to a avoid matchups where tapping has more impact or matchups that are not the players strength. 

 

So for me id usually rather lose the toss early in the tourney and more often win it late. 

 

 

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Great topic.. i def wanna win the coin toss vs regulator and a few others but yes i definitely rather lose the coin toss 85% under the old laws.  But with the new laws i wanna win it 100% lol...

 

Vs reg if i lose the toss my chances to win are very low but if i win it then i say i have a 45% chance.. 

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