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TSB’s Secret “Juice”

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The easiest way to win Tecmo Super Bowl is to lose. The reason? “Juice.” Juice is Tecmo slang for the stat boost COM players receive after each MAN win. A good video game increases in challenge as the player progresses[1]. Level 8-3 in Super Mario Bros. is designed to be much harder than level 1-3. Sports can’t add more hammer brothers in later stages, so increasing difficulty is achieved by better COM AI.

In the original Tecmo Bowl, a single loss meant game over. Therefore, increasing the computer’s skill after each game roughly matched the player’s skill. Tecmo Super Bowl, however, plays a full 16 games regardless of how many games a player wins. TSB programmers needed to tweak their AI equations so a novice player wouldn’t get steamrolled in week 16, yet make it hard enough to offer a challenge to better players. This is where juice comes in, and why you’re more likely to win the Super Bowl as a Wild Card.

Our resident PhD in Tecmology, Dave Brude, was kind enough to break it down for us.

Before every MAN vs. COM matchup, TSB subtracts a player’s losses from their wins. It uses this differential to boost COM stats according to the chart below:

0x1DF10 Stat Boosts
W-L= DEF MS OFF MS DEF INT PC REC
0/PRE 0 1 0 0 0
1 1 2 1 1 1
2 1 2 1 2 2
3 1 2 2 3 2
4 2 2 2 3 3
5 2 2 2 4 3
6 2 2 2 4 4
7 2 2 2 5 4
8 2 2 3 5 5
9 2 2 3 6 5
10 2 2 4 6 6
11 3 2 4 7 6
12 3 3 4 7 7
13 3 3 5 8 7
14 3 3 5 8 8
15 3 3 5 9 8
16 3 4 6 9 9

You can see on the chart that being 4-4 in Week 8 is the equivalent of playing a preseason game. As your wins outnumber your losses, though, COM players get significant boosts.

Most stats max out at 100. For example, COM QBs won’t go over 100 Pass Control no matter how many wins you collect.

However, there is no cap on Max Speed. If you were to play against the LA Raiders with a 16-0 record, Bo Jackson’s already insane 88 MS will jump 4 notches up to 113. Good luck catching him.

Bo Jackson with No Com Juice and Bo Jackson with max Com Juice

Aside from speed and skill, TSB uses the win-loss differential–a.k.a. Juice–to increase COM’s smarts.

A number of player behaviors are governed by Juice. The simplest example is how DBs cover WRs. If your juice is below 8–say you’re 10-4–DBs will mostly just move to a set spot on the field and stop. Once your Juice score reaches 8, however (let’s say you improve to 12-4), COM DBs will man cover WRs 50% of the time.

Side by Side Comparison of how TSB Juices DBs

Nearly every COM behavior is governed by juice. Some behaviors change as low as +2 and some remain unchanged until you hit +12. With this in mind, the smarter play is to just squeak into the playoffs. Your playoff opponents will be much slower and dumber if you’re 9-7 than if you’re 14-2. It may seem counter-intuitive, but the more you lose, the easier TSB gets. It all boils down to Juice.


NOTES:

[1] Except for Battletoads, which is hard as balls from start to finish.

The post TSB’s Secret “Juice” appeared first on TECMO BOWLERS.

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@slim_jimmy7

 

Its scripted randomness. For any given defense for play a defender may have one to a multitude of actions. 

 

Example made up script for top CB

Random number check

50% cover WR 1

Random number check

25% cover RB 1

25% move to backfield pause for awhile and then chase after QB

 

 

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so, it does not use the "number" of wins?  example -  8-8 would be juice level 8 (or nine, depending on if you start counting at 0).  

Edited by buck

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20 minutes ago, Tecmonster said:

8 wins minus 8 losses = juice level 0.

 

11 wins minus 5 losses = juice level 6.

 

yes, I completely understand that way of looking at it.  the article clearly discusses that assumed method and even did a better job explaining it than you did.

 

or do you personally know how the code works - and would rather simply repeat the subtraction method by example - instead of just coming out and saying it?

 

now back to my question:  I was asking if it was not simply the NUMBER OF WINS, period.  I had never actually seen confirmation that it SUBTRACTS wins from losses instead of just using NUMBER OF WINS.  it's just a question.  not a lack of understanding.

Edited by buck

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Would there be any juice involved in a season where every team is set to "MAN"? My friends and I play full seasons game by game and there are times when it seems the Tecmo Gods want a bad team to win or vice versa. 

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@trojan1979

 

Tecmo ratings for all attributes go as follows 6,13,19,25,31,38,44,50,56,63,69,75,81,88,94,100 or 16 possible attribute ratings.

 

Examples

Going from 6 to 13 = 1 notch. 63 to 69 = one notch. 88 to 100 = 2 notches. 

 

Using the example from the 3 wins an 0 losses collumn. 

 

A 50 PC Qb would get boosted 3 notches or using the list of attributes above he would now have 69PC.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, buck said:

keith:

I have read most/all of the articles you have authored, and although I have not kept count, I am under the impression that bruddog is in every other article being credited with something - but I have not seen jstout ever credited.  

 

I do not keep detailed records of who discovered what, but having been extremely active on the hacking/discovery side of this site for the past 11 years, I know that jstout did a FUCK TON of TSB discovery, explanation, and hacking.

 

and that is the reason I am saying it, I am not the writer - you are.  I am not accusing you of deliberately proliferating "fake news" (lol), but credit should be appropriately given.

 

so perhaps, if you want to be a more credible author, you might research and report who did discover what.

 

He replies nicely, explains no malintent and so then you try to call him out? Good grief, dude.

 

These aren't archaeological postings about who did what in TSB. Bruddog is consulted because 1) he is around and replies 2) he fleshed out the body of work COMPLETELY and understands the material. The articles are not meant to be Tecmo historical records but rather laymen explanations. I don't really see anywhere where Bruddog is credited as the Christopher Columbus of Tecmo and discovered the golden Mayan tombs of assembly. Please provide a misappropriation and I will fix it immediately. Show me where it says Bruddog DISCOVERED THIS ALL ON HIS OWN WITHOUT ANY RESEARCH OF HIS OWN WHATSOEVER.

 

I think you are going wayyyyyy overboard on this. Actually, I don't think this. You are going wayyyyyyyy overboard.

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way overboard?  forgive me.  I'm just sayin.  

 

and I'm just trying to help, because it's not like Keith is just writing random posts, like me.  he is actually making articles and writing things people actually might read, unlike my "writings".  

 

so, as a TSB, knobbe.org, tecmobowl.org, and JSTOUT lifelong fan, I am just encouraging Keith to give credit where it's due instead of automatically giving all the hacking/discovery credit to bruddog....nothing against bruddog, seriously, I know what bruddog has done and is still doing.  I already said, "bruddog is THE MAN".

 

....let me repeat again, I am saying this based on my impression, which could be where I have gone "overboard" - using an impression instead of a detailed multiple article analysis.  but my lazyness is possibly excusable, because I am just a dude giving his impressions on a series of articles, not the dude writing the articles.  
 

you, and anybody who has done any hacking research around here, knows as well as me that if any single tecmobowl.org member needs an article written just about them and their TSB discoveries, it's jstout.  and in parallel, so does bruddog, but that is not my point right now.

 

I will leave the discussion here, with no complaints or wounds on me, and no insults intended!  and the author, Keith, can take my critique however he wants (and so can you, dave) and he can do his own research and due diligence as he sees fit.  I am just giving a critique based on my impression, I'm not looking for work (or trouble) combing Keith's articles looking to build a case.

 

TLDR:  again, I'm sorry to start trouble, maybe my last post was unnecessarily redundant, in retrospect (as is this one).  but, keep up the good (TSB) writings.  just drop a jstout shout-out here and there, ok?

Edited by buck

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Whoa, hopefully everyone can remain civil.  I really appreciate the sentiment Buck.

 

Obviously, its nice to be mentioned but I've had little issue with what I've seen so far.  bruddog is a great intelligent guy and is often mentioned instead of me as he answers or explains things for these articles where I haven't really ever talked to keithisgood (in fact keithisgood has never messaged me).  I've never been one to seek credit and accolades and honestly very few will even care that I did this or that.  Everything I've ever done for this site at the core was for my own entertainment and if it helped others than all the better.

 

When I first arrived, TSB rom hacking was mostly data and graphics and I was a mere beginner to 6502 ASM being inspired to learn because of the hacker DahrkDaiz.  As I learned and shared, others on the site also stepped up to produce incredible hacks and knowledge as well.  The TSB rom hacking these days is quite incredible.  It is always enjoyable to drop by and see new hacks and roms that make me wish I had done that.  So please just carry on and keep the amazing things coming.

Edited by jstout

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9 hours ago, jstout said:

Whoa, hopefully everyone can remain civil.  I really appreciate the sentiment Buck.

 

Obviously, its nice to be mentioned but I've had little issue with what I've seen so far.  bruddog is a great intelligent guy and is often mentioned instead of me as he answers or explains things for these articles where I haven't really ever talked to keithisgood (in fact keithisgood has never messaged me).  I've never been one to seek credit and accolades and honestly very few will even care that I did this or that.  Everything I've ever done for this site at the core was for my own entertainment and if it helped others than all the better.

 

When I first arrived, TSB rom hacking was mostly data and graphics and I was a mere beginner to 6502 ASM being inspired to learn because of the hacker DahrkDaiz.  As I learned and shared, others on the site also stepped up to produce incredible hacks and knowledge as well.  The TSB rom hacking these days is quite incredible.  It is always enjoyable to drop by and see new hacks and roms that make me wish I had done that.  So please just carry on and keep the amazing things coming.

 

Everyone is completely civil. We just have an issue of fanboyism being misconstrued and projected on a writer who has no malicious intent. There is no credit being given or not given. Those words are just not written. This is all based on assumptions and feelings.

 

Jstout, you are the man. You know my respect for you. We talk regularly and we connect on a very personal level. None of this has anything to do with you.

 

I put Keith in touch with Bruddog when I started the blog because I have a long standing relationship with Bruddog and we communicate on a great level. We haven't reached out to you for clarification because up until this point it hasn't been necessary. It isn't necessary because of Bruddog's expertise on the subject matter. When we discuss your body of work, it is cited (as Bruddog pasted above). When we get down and dirty, the three of us (keithisgood, bruddog, myself) discuss the hacks or matters at hand. But in reality, Keith understands ROM hacking on a level greater than most users (producer of hacks on RHDN), he writes the blog articles and clears facts/theories with Bruddog OR asks him to weigh in on the heavy stuff.

 

These articles aren't for accolades. We don't write articles on each other and how awesome we are. To be frank, my readers do not give one shit about who we are. How this content is getting so perverted is beyond me.

 

Honestly, this shouldn't even be discussed. There are no issues here. We've already derailed this great thread containing an awesome article to serve a community who has a deep interest in how TSB's inner-workings tick. There is no point in me syndicating my content here if people are gonna try to call out the writers for issues that don't exist. So, for now, the syndication is off.

 

 

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39 minutes ago, davefmurray said:

 

There is no point in me syndicating my content here if people are gonna try to call out the writers for issues that don't exist. So, for now, the syndication is off.

 

 

That sucks! These articles are great; informative and entertaining. Don't let some whine-ass wreck it for the rest of us...please?

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