Player Abilities (from the manual)

[johnz1]

from the TSB3 manual:

Running Speed: A player's dashing speed

Rushing Power: Starting power of a player's dash

Maximum Speed: A player's maximum speed

Hitting Power: A player's strength when blocking or hitting an opponent

Body Balance: A player's sense of balance

Agility: Speed at which a player changes direction

I am unclear about two of these areas. For RUSHING POWER, do you think its a players initial speed, or initial power? If it is power, what exactly does that mean?

For BODY BALANCE, what does "sense of balance" mean? Can anyone explain this one?

thanks in advance for any help

[Bad Moon Rison]

Here's a topic on body balance and agility:

http://www.tecmobowl.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=609

As for rushing power, you got me. I tested it a while ago and if I remember correctly, it might have been a player's initial speed. Hitting power seems to be the only attribute that involves actual power running.

[cuppettcj]

Here's a topic on body balance and agility:

http://www.tecmobowl.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=609

As for rushing power, you got me. I tested it a while ago and if I remember correctly, it might have been a player's initial speed. Hitting power seems to be the only attribute that involves actual power running.

I read the whole topic, yet nobody actually tested and confirmed what BB and AGI actually do. Everything was pure speculation. As for Rushing Power, I know for a fact that it controls how fast a player accelerates to his Maximum Speed in TSB for the NES, but haven't tested it in TSBIII yet. It is possible the programmers changed what RS, RP, and MS do from the earlier versions. It's also possible (and probably likely) that they made Accuracy of Passing and Quickness actually do something in the later versions.

[Bad Moon Rison]

My test for Rushing Power was done on the TSB III version and it was the same as you said it was.

As for BB and AG, it is a little harder to test those. Most of the speculation is about the attributes that were added to TSB III: spin moves, jumping, dragging, etc. These moves happen sporadically of course and are harder to determine. If you would like to try and find out what these do, I'd be more than happy to know.

[johnz1]

So I tested for AGILITY and BODY BALANCE. I used the Browns, William Green and Lee Suggs. I kept all the stats the same, except 3: agility, body balance, and hitting power. Here's the result for the frequency of spin moves and hurdles (jumps)

A=99 BB=06 HP=06

20 Rushes 0 Spins 2 Hurdles

20 Rushes 4 Spins 1 Hurdles

20 Rushes 1 Spins 2 Hurdles

BB=99 A=06 HP=06

20 Rushes 7 Spins 0 Hurdles

20 Rushes 13 Spins 0 Hurdles

20 Rushes 19 Spins 0 Hurdles

Its very clear that BB controls spin moves. Agility probably controlls hurdles. Like the manual says, Agility definitely controls how fast a player recovers speed from changing direction.

[Knobbe]

Rod wrote in another post that BB controls spin moves and Agility is for jumping moves. I always thought the exact opposite was the case.

Start trusting me and not your instincts, especially if they differ. Not only will your tecmo skills increase, but your ability to score chicks will be on the rise as well!!!!

[Knobbe]

This is a good start. The next thing you might want to think about is making sure that all the attributes do something. For example, people have been able to determine that quickness doesn't do anything in TSB for the NES.

Thus, do all the attributes do something? For TSB III you think the programmers wouldn't have included anything that didn't work, but you never know.

The way to test this is to record a movie when you play a game. Using the same rom you should be able to play back this movie over and over again with the results being the same.

Now change something like the skin color of the starting QB. If you play the game over and over again you will see that it plays exactly the same because game play wise, nothing change.

Now change something like passing speed on a qb or running speed on a running back. When you play the movie now you will see that the outcome is different. After a while, the game will be really screwy because a movie file depends on recording the buttons and arrows that you press.

The entire point of this is: If you change an attribute and it doesn't affect the outcome of the game, then you know that the attribute doesn't affect the game and it's worthless.

Its very clear that BB controls spin moves. Agility probably controlls hurdles. Like the manual says, Agility definitely controls how fast a player recovers speed from changing direction.

[Bad Moon Rison]

Rod wrote in another post that BB controls spin moves and Agility is for jumping moves. I always thought the exact opposite was the case.

Start trusting me and not your instincts, especially if they differ. Not only will your tecmo skills increase, but your ability to score chicks will be on the rise as well!!!!

I should take larger samples before making a committed decision. The only reason I said that was because in my other post, I found Steve Tasker, with a body balance of 6, do multiple spin moves in one kickoff return. Selective memory.

I find johnz's results staggering for body balance. As for agility, you seem to be on the right track, it might be hurdles. You said you kept all the attributes the same, but said you were going to change HP and didn't. I was wondering where dragging fit into the equation. I've noticed that some RBs drag players at different rates of speed. Does that depend on their own RP/MS? I'm 99.9% positive that RP is initial speed.

The entire point of this is: If you change an attribute and it doesn't affect the outcome of the game, then you know that the attribute doesn't affect the game and it's worthless.

Can't someone who is altering an attribute in TSB Manager just be altering it cosmetically? I've imported some 2003/2004 version TSB ROMs into SNES versions, and I find that anyone who is in Dan Marino's spot (AKA Jay Fiedler) plays nearly as well as Dan Marino.

[Knobbe]

I don't know for sure about importing an older version into a newer version but if you're editting the BB and agility for a player in TSB for the nes, obviously those attributes don't carry over.

Can't someone who is altering an attribute in TSB Manager just be altering it cosmetically? I've imported some 2003/2004 version TSB ROMs into SNES versions, and I find that anyone who is in Dan Marino's spot (AKA Jay Fiedler) plays nearly as well as Dan Marino.

[cres]

It seems likely that Quickness in the NES version may be similar to Agility in TSB III. Has anyone tested to see if that Quickness does make a difference changing directions? I know some guys you use on defense when you make a 180 degree change in direction slow down incredinly and others not nearly as much so.

[Bad Moon Rison]

I don't know for sure about importing an older version into a newer version but if you're editting the BB and agility for a player in TSB for the nes, obviously those attributes don't carry over.

Can't someone who is altering an attribute in TSB Manager just be altering it cosmetically? I've imported some 2003/2004 version TSB ROMs into SNES versions, and I find that anyone who is in Dan Marino's spot (AKA Jay Fiedler) plays nearly as well as Dan Marino.

I did this with TSB I recently, where those attributes do not apply. Sorry for the confusion. It would seem weird that the same rules might not be applicable just because data was imported into a SNES version. It also might be that the editors for the SNES versions are not as sophisticated as the editing tools for the NES.

[cuppettcj]

My test for Rushing Power was done on the TSB III version and it was the same as you said it was.

It seems you were responding to me, but I really didn't say it was anything, since I didn't test TSBIII, only TSB for the NES. I mentioned that RP controlled how fast a player accelerates in that older version. RS is the initial speed for that version, not RP.

I'm 99.9% positive that RP is initial speed.

You do mean RP, and not RS, right? So what does RS do in TSBIII? Have you tried setting RS to 100 and RP, MS to 6? If RS is now in charge of acceleration speed, then doing this would still result in a very slow player. When I did this in TSB for the NES, the player was still fast, just not as fast as a player with a high MS.

Can't someone who is altering an attribute in TSB Manager just be altering it cosmetically? I've imported some 2003/2004 version TSB ROMs into SNES versions, and I find that anyone who is in Dan Marino's spot (AKA Jay Fiedler) plays nearly as well as Dan Marino.

Did you actually play a game with Jay Fieldler or simulate one? Keep in mind that TSB for the NES is the only version with known sim data. In order to accurately simulate games in TSB, TSBII, and TSBIII for the Genesis and SNES, you need to set all teams to COM and actually watch them play. Of course, you can set your emulator at a high framerate so it doesn't take so long.

[Bad Moon Rison]

It seems you were responding to me, but I really didn't say it was anything, since I didn't test TSBIII, only TSB for the NES. I mentioned that RP controlled how fast a player accelerates in that older version. RS is the initial speed for that version, not RP.

Whoops, my sentence meant to read that I had tested it for TSB III, like you had tested it for the NES version. The results were the same.

You do mean RP, and not RS, right? So what does RS do in TSBIII? Have you tried setting RS to 100 and RP, MS to 6? If RS is now in charge of acceleration speed, then doing this would still result in a very slow player. When I did this in TSB for the NES, the player was still fast, just not as fast as a player with a high MS.

RS is the same for all offensive players (I believe it is, I get it confused with RP as well). If this is the case, then this attribute might have to do with defense if it differs. I've tried doing it and remember not getting conclusive results.

Did you actually play a game with Jay Fieldler or simulate one? Keep in mind that TSB for the NES is the only version with known sim data. In order to accurately simulate games in TSB, TSBII, and TSBIII for the Genesis and SNES, you need to set all teams to COM and actually watch them play. Of course, you can set your emulator at a high framerate so it doesn't take so long.

No, it was not a simulation game. I played against the Dolphins with the mediocre Bills (and Drew Bledsoe) and LOST, which rarely happens in the first version. Ricky Williams was fast, but it was Fiedler who beat me and completed ridiculous passes to all his receivers. The second I would get close to him on a pass rush, he would fire it out of there like Marino, lighting me up for 28 points. By contrast, I kept the Chiefs to 3 points and even picked off Trent Green twice.

[cuppettcj]

No, it was not a simulation game. I played against the Dolphins with the mediocre Bills (and Drew Bledsoe) and LOST, which rarely happens in the first version. Ricky Williams was fast, but it was Fiedler who beat me and completed ridiculous passes to all his receivers. The second I would get close to him on a pass rush, he would fire it out of there like Marino, lighting me up for 28 points. By contrast, I kept the Chiefs to 3 points and even picked off Trent Green twice.

Interesting. I would suggest doing some more testing with this. Fieldler might just have had a fluke good game. Recently I've been testing TSB for the Genesis and I can guarantee you that changes to a QB's Passing Speed and Pass Control are NOT cosmetic. The jury is still out on what Passing Accuracy does in this version. I haven't tested TSB for the SNES.

[chymiy]

One of my friends that I used to play Tecmo with was noticeably better at having his players do spin moves than my other friends were. I used to always think that Body Balance alone controlled spin moves (and Agility controlled hurdles, because of the increased frequency of created players hurdling when they were given Agility points), but I now think that there was some amount of user input involved. I'm not exactly certain of his method for doing spin moves, but if I remember correctly, he would tap one of the diagonals on the control pad just before he was about to run into an opposing player. I'm not sure if that's right, though. I still feel stupid for taking so long to figure out how another one of my friends was able to throw the ball to the receiver without the arrow on him.

[kork]

It's awesome that someone (johnz1) finally tested out the BB/AG thing for spins with larger stats. I always thought BB was for all special moves because they both first appear in TSBII, but that's just speculation.

Something I did test a long time ago on TSBIII was AG and RS. I'm fairly sure AG controls how fast a player changes direction or responds to the control pad. RS is definitely initial speed, including initial speed after hurdles, broken tackles, etc. My RB with 6 RS started slow, and anytime he dumped a defender he slowed down huge. Also, how come a few offensive players get non-69 values for RS, like Rice? Well, okay - he's Rice.

Any new ideas about Coolness and Avoid Rush?

[Bad Moon Rison]

It would make sense that agility might control hurdles. I believe hurdles are not in TSB II, which also lacks the agility attribute. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Just speculation:

Coolness- QBs ability to throw good pass under pressure

Avoid Rush- QBs ability to get the ball off before getting sacked

Also, I think RS is different for defenders. Is this the player's running ability when they don't control the ball? I've noticed offensive players move the same speed more or less. I've never tested RS on defense.

[kork]

You know, I think all this time I never noticed that there are no hurdles in TSBII. You learn something new every day in the world of Tecmo. Maybe it does relate to AG.

I never tested RS for defenders, only RBs. Something else to try.

[barbera66]

I'm not sure if that's right, though. I still feel stupid for taking so long to figure out how another one of my friends was able to throw the ball to the receiver without the arrow on him.

how in gods name do you do that?

[instant000]

simple, hit the pass button, immediately followed by the switch receiver button (almost simultaneously) and the arrow will go somewhere else,

and the receiver will get the pass, without having an arrow.

[pi_hole]

The following are the actual meanings of Tecmo's Attributes, from my vast experience in playing the game:

Running Speed: a player's acceleration

Rushing Power: a player's initial velocity

Maximum Speed: a player's maximum velocity

Hitting Power: a player's ability to knock down an opposing player

Body Balance: a player's ability to avoid an opposing player without changing direction and stay on his feet in inclement weather

Agility: a player's ability to maintain his velocity while changing direction, his likelihood to jump to avoid a diving opponent, and his likelihood to jump/dive to catch a passed ball

Passing Speed: velocity of a thrown ball (when "B" is held - any QB can loft a pass)

Passing Control: the inverse likelihood of a "lame duck" pass, and consequently the likelihood of a pass to be caught by its intended receiver

Passing Accuracy: a passer's ability to hit a receiver in stride or to hit a covered receiver

Avoid Rush: a CPU-controlled passer's likelihood to scramble, and the ability to avoid batted down passes

Coolness: a CPU-controlled passer's ability to maintain his *other* passing stats in the face of pressure, and the inverse likelihood that a passer will scramble

Ball Control: inverse likelihood of fumblitis

Receptions: ability to catch a passed ball

Interceptions: ability to catch a passed ball

Quickness: A player's ability to react to a play - the likelihood of successfully defensing a play (i.e. avoiding a block, hitting a ball carrier, defensing a pass); note this is not the same as making a tackle

Kicking stats are for kickers. I don't kick.

Some notes on the above:

Passing Accuracy and Passing Control coupled with Receptions and/or Interceptions determine whether a passed ball is actually caught - both involved players' (or all three, when the receiver is tightly covered) abilities "make a roll".

Quickness is most easily observed by choosing a human-vs-human game, and having the defensive player be a DB. Have the offensive player pass to a receiver ostensibly covered by said DB, but have the DB out of position. When the ball is thrown, attempt to cover the receiver and defend the pass. If using a ROM, it should be possible to edit the DB's Quickness attribute and replay the exact sequence - the higher Quickness should result in a quicker response to the change in direction, and should also result in a smaller Agility hit.

Whether Body Balance or Agility control a player's likelihood to jump is neither here nor there - Body Balance clearly controls the spin, and jumping is overrated (and usually results in landing on the diving player). Logically, Agility should control jumping, and previous evidence seems to support that.

Some implications:

RP blends well with HP. A player with good stats in both categories should be able to knock virtually anyone down. DLs, LBs, and even S need both to be high (though HP should be higher).

High RS and RP can negate a low AGI.

PS is useless without PA.

PA is useless without PC.

QBs don't need RP or AGI - they are gifted with RS bonuses, and seem to have an inherently high AGI, regardless of the attribute (though higher is still noticeably better).

QBs also don't need much in the way of BB - as with AGI, they seem to have an inherently high BB (though, again, higher is better). Also, a higher BB QB has less of a tendency to slip in inclement weather.

BB trumps HP for any RB. Many will deny this, but it is true. HP remains important, but for "agile" ball carriers (RBs, WRs), BB is the stat that matters.

AR and COOL are essentially ineffective for MAN teams. The actual passing attributes are by far the more important.

----------------------------

Which leads to proper custom player creation (discounting obvious attributes such as BC, REC):

QB: high PC, PA, PS - in that order.

HB: high MS, RS, RP, BB, AGI - in that order (though, the higher the RP, the lower RS can be).

WR: high MS, RS, BB, AGI - in that order.

TE/FB: high HP, RP, MS, BB - in that order.

OL/DL: high HP, RP - in that order.

LB: high HP, RP, MS, AGI, RS, QUI - in that order (these are the most important defensive players)

CB: high MS, AGI, RS, INT, QUI - in that order

S: high MS, HP, AGI, RS, QUI, INT, RP - in that order

Many will disagree, and I allow that, but these player creation methods are tried and true - hundreds and hundreds of seasons - and they have provided the most success. Certainly, there is room for specialization (which is why CBs are distinct with respect to S) - I tend to include different personality traits into my custom players just to make things interesting - but on the whole these guides are true.

Clearly, there are no ratios or numbers, so you can also account for forecasted improvements, or tweak the model one way or the other (adding my quirks, or creating an Ironhead-on-Steroids, etc.). Also, although I've listed attributes in descending order of importance, some (indeed, many) can be considered equally important to the previously listed attribute - it is not a scale, per se, but a basic guide.

Enjoy.

--

pi hole

[kfcrispy]

Running Speed: a player's acceleration

Rushing Power: a player's initial velocity

Maximum Speed: a player's maximum velocity

i definitely disagree on these.

for one thing, my defensive linemen i make always only have RS (6 RP and 6 MS). when i don't control them they fly. i am pretty sure the computer doesn't use RP AT ALL.

the way i built offensive (ball handling) characters in the past was no work on Body Balance (i've always thought this was for blocks/bumping) and no Rushing Power (until other stats were pumped up). i did notice initial speeds for characters with low RP are very slow when humans control the player, but again, the computer seems to ignore RP so when the computer uses the character, he's significantly faster.

i just found this site and the game genie code and i am trying to test Running Speed vs Max Speed... i am making characters with 6 in RS and both human-controlled and CPU characters with these maxed out are ultra-fast and never slow down! i also tried making a character with no Max Spd, and the result is not too different.. does the game simply take the higher speed btwn Running Speed and Maximum Speed??????

i did find, however, that if your Max SPD is 100 (6 Running SPD), the character is FASTER than a character with 100 Running Speed (6 Max SPD). this is a very observable difference. control and speed is much more responsive with a 100 MS vs a 100 RS character.

[TomTupa]

If you have a high RP (initial speed) your player will start off fast regardless of his acceleration (RS) or true max speed. You can't get a high enough initial speed to equal 100 ms though. Bruddog can give you all the exact info I'm sure.

[kfcrispy]

ok so it's possible Max SPD is ignored in some cases, such as if the speed from Rushing Power is higher than the speed from Max SPD.... so for minimum points in the running game, i'd pump Rushing Power only (QBs and such) so i don't need to spend any points in MS or RS and will just have 1 flat speed. if i want a speed demon i need to pump Rushing Power and Maximum Speed. in any case, i can probably always ignore Running Speed as long as RP is high enough (because you will never go slower than your RP speed).

i am gonna do some more testing to see if Running Speed really is acceleration. i will test 6 RS / 6 RP / 100 MS vs 100 RS / 6 RP / 100 MS. 100 RS/MS is what i usually do and i feel like there is a significant slowness in the beginning because i never developed RP when i played. if RS is really acceleration it'll take even longer than what i'm used to in order to start running quickly.

also another reason for RP over RS is that whenever you hit somebody you stop again, and you will start running again with the RP speed.

oh yeah going back to RS = acceleration, i still have to point out that my DL and OL literally fly when the CPU controls them, and they only have 100 RS, 100 HP, and other stuff like BB. they might start out slow (although vs human control it's still pretty fast initial speed), but that doesn't explain how they can become so fast if MS and RP are both 6. i never pump their other stats unless they gain more points. so i still think RS is some kind of running speed and not acceleration. i think it's very possible that acceleration is not defined in any stat. but right now i'm going to test.

*** after testing, it seems like different sections definitely use different stats. on kick returns, someone with 6/6/6 in the 3 stats is still able to move with a decent speed after the initial acceleration (takes like 3 seconds to get to the "max speed"). of course, there was the case where 100/6/6 seems to be okay for the computer on defense. but when running the ball while on offense as MAN, the different stats definitely have their place. RS definitely controls acceleration during, RP initial speed, and MS max speed. having 100/6/100 will be nearly identical to 6/100/100, and 6/100/6 is decent, you just can't achieve a higher speed since MS speed values seem higher point for point vs RP, and you don't decelerate to your MS speed value in this case.

[kfcrispy]

it's really fun to read about this old skool stuff now 15 years after playing the game... i read that the punt and kick returner speeds in TSB (for NES, at least) was found to be based on the linemen that the returner replaces (due to programming errors), which and that the Saints and Steelers have the fastest lineman, making their returners (regardless of who it was) the fastest returners out of any team. is this true for this game? when i was testing the different speeds, someone with 6RS/6RP/6MS could still run pretty fast, even though on offense with the ball, they basically could not move. but i feel that someone with 100 in all stats is still faster than that 6/6/6 character on returns, so it might not work the same way as the TSB NES game.