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Create Your Own Defenses

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Here is a guide I just wrote on how to create your own defenses. This is based off of Jstout's awesome guide "NES Play Design Info", which you'll find a few topics down. I spent a hell of a lot time studying that. Soooo MUCH thanks goes out to Jstout for that. My guide breaks down things even further dealing with everything that I learned from it. It covers placing your formation as you have drawn it up. You'll be able to create your own defense with Pre-snap movement. I also list some important codes for Post-snap instructions as well. My guide is spread across each TSB1, that is NES, SNES, & the GENESIS version, including how to calculate their pointers. With that all said, the guide is below and feel free to ask any questions.

Defense Guide.zip

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Seriously, great job, dude. I had no idea you were going to go so thorough when we were discussing this. It's write-ups like this that set the tone for community development. Jstout and co. dropping science is always a good thing. But tutorials will be what grabs a newer generation. Great work, XP.

I may be wrong, but I believe this merits 'sticky-dom.'

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The pre snap movement is what we are using to create a "huddle break" effect on TSB3 NCAA. See my you tube link in download section, and it has texas breaking huddle for the bubble screen play. Am implementing now for the defense. Am definatley going to look at your guide to see how to redo the defense ai for our rom. Thsi should help alot. Will be releasing the next vid of all our formation huddle breaks soon.

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Great write up xplozv! Something I have been too lazy to do for a long time.

Another fun thing to do is to use "randoms" presnap. You probably wrote about them in your guide I'm not sure.

For example on my "blitz defense" the SS will randomly move close to the line of scrimmage to blitz.

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The pre snap movement is what we are using to create a "huddle break" effect on TSB3 NCAA.

You guys have done some incredible work with TSB3. I can't wait to see all the added changes you guys are working on.

Another fun thing to do is to use "randoms" presnap. You probably wrote about them in your guide I'm not sure.

I like to do that same thing. My defenses always random shifts and each player most of the time at least 2 to 4 responsibilities postsanp as well. The same look on defense won't mean the same play. I randomly set player to help in run support too by breaking their pass coverage responsibility at any given time. I will have a second guide posted in a day or two explaining how to do those as well. This first guide is just to get anyone's defensive ideas from paper to the game, and then go on from there. My next guide will dig into those deeper things to make a more complicated pro style defense.

My goal with defense is too create a great scheme that any team can win with. On any given sunday, even a bad team can win with the right gameplan regardless of talent. In that way I have been trying alot of ways to make COM & MAN play more competitive without boosting player abilities. By that same token if you pick a blitz and it doesn't get there, you will get burned, too. One thing I never liked about the original TSB was that if a player was one on one, it was nearly always incomplete. So with the your help bruddog as well as jstout, I have been testing a lot of adjustments for receptions and interceptions and just about come up with something that I like. If welker is covered by a garbage LB, most of the time it will be a win for offense, and at the same time, don't throw to chansi stuckey by ed reed and expect a first down. With creating your own defense, you ultimately make it a chess game where vs man or vs com is tough regardless of the team's talent level. This won't give a original TSB feel, but can make a more realistic feel, especially for MAN players. Your opponent will have to do a little reading of the coverage before the blitz gets there, hopefully forcing a few punts. Another adjustment I have been testing is jump picks. In real life action, a underneath LB will often INT a QB who tries to force the ball over the middle, CBs will jump routes for INTs. I want to ulimately force a MAN qb to have to manipulate the pocket to create a passing lane, otherwise beware of the LBs lurking in a shallow zone.

With all that being said, I have just uploaded a rom that I been testing such adjustments. It has the audible shift packages for GL, 4-6, 4-3, 5-2, 3-4, 4-4, Nickel, & Dime in place. I haven't put their base coverages in yet. I would like you guys to test out these ideas for me. Maynard said one something that made me think the other day. He mentioned to me about the MLB making all the defensive calls. So on many of the shifts you will see the MLB go "talk" with a safety or other LB before a shift or audible takes place. The defense may not even audible at all :wink:. I added the defensive plays to the playcall screen like Bruddog & Maynard did for their roms. I also changed a few other graphics as well. The player icons are now team colored football. I change the receiver arrow to make a little harder for MAN to know off hand where you are going with the ball. One I add in their base defensive coverages, if all goes well, I might release this rom as Just Bring It 4, or just leave it to be disected for ideas. Let me know what you guys think.

Just Bring It 4 Beta.zip

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In that way I have been trying alot of ways to make COM & MAN play more competitive without boosting player abilities.

How about just boosting one COM player that the MAN opponent has to watch out for? Is there a way to just give the COM player with the number over his head a RS MS HP INT boost? Then you could randomize which player the COM "controls" each play. That would give it more of a MAN vs MAN feel.

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The first thing I want to do for TSB defense is randomize the Inside-LBs (depending on run or pass picked) - because they usually just sit there a couple yards off the LOS.

1. either or both can "mirror ball carrier" at random depths

2. either or both can blitz up the middle (maybe bumping the NT on the way)

3. either or both can drop back in pass coverage

But this scenario would stay within the original TSB 3-4 and pickable-play scheme.

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You can only boost a specific position(s) at least within the confines of the defensive play design.

How about just boosting one COM player that the MAN opponent has to watch out for? Is there a way to just give the COM player with the number over his head a RS MS HP INT boost? Then you could randomize which player the COM "controls" each play. That would give it more of a MAN vs MAN feel.

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Here are some thoughts with no real order to them.

BAD: Sorry to post this first but I didn't like the smaller icons. It was very hard to tell WHO I WAS selecting or throwing to. Maybe just a tad bigger?

SELF-PROMOTION: I still like the way I made defensive lines more dynamic by adding random HP boosts in my rom. The better lines get you more overall pressure without having to

add too many blitzing players.

GOOD: THe formations and shifts look and act very well.

One problem with Tecmo is that it really doesn't support complex defenses and offenses too well because of the compressed field. Plays that work in the NFL are much harder to make work or don't work at all since the vertical spacing is much smaller.

One of things I run into is making sure the pass defenses aren't too good as run defenses and the run defenses are too good as pass defenses. Granted if you have an Ed Reed, Patrick Willis type player you are more flexible.

I'm definitely adding some presnap shifts but I will probably only add 1 for each defense other than the one blitz defense. I still want it to be fairly vanilla so that its fairly obvious strategically what your defense will be doing every play.

I'm not sure what you mean about the ball being always incomplete in TSB? Even when there is coverage a lot of times the QB will "overthrow" the ball and the WR will jump for it. And good qbs and WR's complete a lot of covered passes. There is a whole spredsheet detailing how this works for the most part. Were referring to COM vs MAN play?

I definitely know what you mean about WR's vs LBs etc. I tweaked the passing game hex values to make it slightly more realistic. Any great db can jump pick any QB. Even some LBs can jump pick some of the bad qbs.

I think the coverage has to be somewhat diluted for man vs man play since a man defender can cover a lot of ground. For man vs com its probably good to have it fairly strong.

I have a fwe plays where the QB can "manipulate the pocket since the LB's are "mirroring the QB at a certain depth level" By scrambling t the bottom you may take away LB in passing lane to an open player.

[

Another fun thing to do is to use "randoms" presnap. You probably wrote about them in your guide I'm not sure.

I like to do that same thing. My defenses always random shifts and each player most of the time at least 2 to 4 responsibilities postsanp as well. The same look on defense won't mean the same play. I randomly set player to help in run support too by breaking their pass coverage responsibility at any given time. I will have a second guide posted in a day or two explaining how to do those as well. This first guide is just to get anyone's defensive ideas from paper to the game, and then go on from there. My next guide will dig into those deeper things to make a more complicated pro style defense.

My goal with defense is too create a great scheme that any team can win with. On any given sunday, even a bad team can win with the right gameplan regardless of talent. In that way I have been trying alot of ways to make COM & MAN play more competitive without boosting player abilities. By that same token if you pick a blitz and it doesn't get there, you will get burned, too. One thing I never liked about the original TSB was that if a player was one on one, it was nearly always incomplete. So with the your help bruddog as well as jstout, I have been testing a lot of adjustments for receptions and interceptions and just about come up with something that I like. If welker is covered by a garbage LB, most of the time it will be a win for offense, and at the same time, don't throw to chansi stuckey by ed reed and expect a first down. With creating your own defense, you ultimately make it a chess game where vs man or vs com is tough regardless of the team's talent level. This won't give a original TSB feel, but can make a more realistic feel, especially for MAN players. Your opponent will have to do a little reading of the coverage before the blitz gets there, hopefully forcing a few punts. Another adjustment I have been testing is jump picks. In real life action, a underneath LB will often INT a QB who tries to force the ball over the middle, CBs will jump routes for INTs. I want to ulimately force a MAN qb to have to manipulate the pocket to create a passing lane, otherwise beware of the LBs lurking in a shallow zone.

With all that being said, I have just uploaded a rom that I been testing such adjustments. It has the audible shift packages for GL, 4-6, 4-3, 5-2, 3-4, 4-4, Nickel, & Dime in place. I haven't put their base coverages in yet. I would like you guys to test out these ideas for me. Maynard said one something that made me think the other day. He mentioned to me about the MLB making all the defensive calls. So on many of the shifts you will see the MLB go "talk" with a safety or other LB before a shift or audible takes place. The defense may not even audible at all :wink:. I added the defensive plays to the playcall screen like Bruddog & Maynard did for their roms. I also changed a few other graphics as well. The player icons are now team colored football. I change the receiver arrow to make a little harder for MAN to know off hand where you are going with the ball. One I add in their base defensive coverages, if all goes well, I might release this rom as Just Bring It 4, or just leave it to be disected for ideas. Let me know what you guys think.

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I'm not sure what you mean about the ball being always incomplete in TSB? Even when there is coverage a lot of times the QB will "overthrow" the ball and the WR will jump for it. And good qbs and WR's complete a lot of covered passes. There is a whole spredsheet detailing how this works for the most part. Were referring to COM vs MAN play?

Yes, I was talking about COM vs MAN play when it comes to some of those shorter routes. When you try on the original to get those 7 to 10 yards and the receiver is sitting there covered(happens more on Genesis than any other version in my opinion), you can count on it to be incomplete.

I think the coverage has to be somewhat diluted for man vs man play since a man defender can cover a lot of ground. For man vs com its probably good to have it fairly strong.

That's a great point. In order to really make a great all-around rom is not easy, sometimes seems impossible. I am one who plays M vs M, M vs Com, & Coa, and sometimes I like to change modes in a middle of the season without changing to a different rom. If M vs com is great, one of the other two isn't and so on. So I had been working on trying to balance the 3 modes on one rom but get disappointed in one of them. You and Maynard have the right idea in specializing in one specific mode rather than all 3 at once.

One of things I run into is making sure the pass defenses aren't too good as run defenses and the run defenses are too good as pass defenses.

That's a great way to do it. I think I been trying to hard to make each defense too good.

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And to go with what my bro Hurricane55 was saying, we were using the randomizing thing already with the huddle break so that when u break huddle it should rarely look the same. The QB especially. Were also doing things with the offensive plays where things can change depending on what defense is called. All we needed was to research the defensive side of the ball to see how much we could get away with. We don't want to add too much more offense to what already is a heavy dose that TSB3 is known for. So to counter the offensive silent audibles we're creating defensive audibles that can hide what the defense is doing. Wanting to make some plays become high risk, high reward type deals. So much thanks, you've prolly cut out months of research and testing for us. I'm looking foward to applying this and seeing it in action...

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I had tons of strategy involved when I drafted out TSC's initial game play. A notebook of ideas and illustrations. After rehearsal every night, my buddy Dan and I would smoke butts in my kitchen and draft out ideas. Most of them I didn't think were possible until I either learned how to do it, or Jstout pointed me in the right direction, pinning-the-nail-on-the-donkey style. Layers and layers of game play logic thoughts, in not just a football sense, but how to 'best' manipulate TSB, and coupled with a lot of intoxication. I'll guarantee you I've coded this game less-sober more often than not. You can put money on that shit.

I'm pumped to check out new work from people...

I like stealing new functionality. :wink:

But seriously, after I'm done with v1.2, I plan to do a good once over the community ROMs out there and start writing down a list of shit that I want to scavenge. Bruddog, your ROM is sounding tasty. And you're doing some interesting things, XP.

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I've easily spent the last year (notebooks, spreadsheets, MAN testing, etc, hundreds of test-roms) on the Buck 09-10 ROM (it started as Time Machine 2...)

with the goals:

be the "same" as original TSB (traditional-style), but better,

make new plays,

maintain the "chess-match/mind-game" of picking plays,

implement hacks - mainly HP, PA, Quickness

make a solid rom for both MAN and COM play.

...anyways

On the other hand, I'm interested in the "weird" stuff you guys are doing - [TSB is becoming a different game - mainly for the loss of the play-picking.]

Personally, I'd like to continue to make "traditional" TSB roms, so that there's still the "mind-game" aspect to it (I think TSB is unique in that you can "pick an opponents play") - but somehow implement some of the new defensive formations/ideas you guys have come up with.

Any ideas on how to do this (maintain play-picking but have variable-formation defenses)? I think it is as important to keep the "traditional" TSB-style alive as you guys move the game to a more Madden-like simulation experience.

I had tons of strategy involved when I drafted out TSC's initial game play. A notebook of ideas and illustrations. After rehearsal every night, my buddy Dan and I would smoke butts in my kitchen and draft out ideas. Most of them I didn't think were possible until I either learned how to do it, or Jstout pointed me in the right direction, pinning-the-nail-on-the-donkey style. Layers and layers of game play logic thoughts, in not just a football sense, but how to 'best' manipulate TSB, and coupled with a lot of intoxication. I'll guarantee you I've coded this game less-sober more often than not. You can put money on that shit.

I'm pumped to check out new work from people...

I like stealing new functionality. :wink:

But seriously, after I'm done with v1.2, I plan to do a good once over the community ROMs out there and start writing down a list of shit that I want to scavenge. Bruddog, your ROM is sounding tasty. And you're doing some interesting things, XP.

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It's funny, because for as long as I've lived TSB, I've never quite understood the boost blitz. I get that maybe in a Defensive reaction (which aren't really even architecturally sound in having any actual rationale--although applicable, for sure) a few players come to the line and shoot towards the QB. But I've really never fully understood the mechanic / interest of a full-on out Berserk-style rush. I accept that my interest is a-typical, however.

berserk.gif

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Yes, I was talking about COM vs MAN play when it comes to some of those shorter routes. When you try on the original to get those 7 to 10 yards and the

receiver is sitting there covered(happens more on Genesis than any other version in my opinion), you can count on it to be incomplete.

Gotcha. It gets especially hard as the computer gets "boosts" to make them faster better at intercepting etc.

That's a great point. In order to really make a great all-around rom is not easy, sometimes seems impossible. I am one who plays M vs M, M vs Com, & Coa, and sometimes I like to change modes in a middle of the season without changing to a different rom. If M vs com is great, one of the other two isn't and so on. So I had been working on trying to balance the 3 modes on one rom but get disappointed in one of them. You and Maynard have the right idea in specializing in one specific mode rather than all 3 at once.

I definitely think concentrating on one mode or the other is best. Or you just have to be willing to sacrifice a bit to make both good. Unfortunately I still think in COM mode there is no real way to make them play smart. You can make them tough to beat with insane boosts, etc but the computers play selection logic is just terrible and there is no real way to fix that without a modified emulator like TSBultra running on top of it.

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That's a nice graphical touch. I imagine TSB 3 has much more free space to play with.

And to go with what my bro Hurricane55 was saying, we were using the randomizing thing already with the huddle break so that when u break huddle it should rarely look the same. The QB especially. Were also doing things with the offensive plays where things can change depending on what defense is called. All we needed was to research the defensive side of the ball to see how much we could get away with. We don't want to add too much more offense to what already is a heavy dose that TSB3 is known for. So to counter the offensive silent audibles we're creating defensive audibles that can hide what the defense is doing. Wanting to make some plays become high risk, high reward type deals. So much thanks, you've prolly cut out months of research and testing for us. I'm looking foward to applying this and seeing it in action...

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I think actually having less picked plays makes it MORE of a mind game. I've noticed in the practice games I've played that "tecmo skill" becomes less important and setting up certain plays or the mind game of "okay he's sitting in dime i'm going to run. Or maybe he's going to come at me with 8 in the box now i'll continue passing" is actually stronger.

However I see how the casual fan might miss the simple pick your play style. One of the other benfits for me of going with non-picked plays is that I don't have to worry about "borrowing" or coding a new defense that better fits the play. Each defensive reaction is somewhat tweaked for each play.

Anyway the answer to your question is yes. You could still put in a blitz reaction so that if guess the same play as your opponent you get the typical crazyblitz otherwise you would get the default defensive reaction for that play.I think logically though it would be kind of confusing picking plays that way but it could be very interesting as well.

I've easily spent the last year (notebooks, spreadsheets, MAN testing, etc, hundreds of test-roms) on the Buck 09-10 ROM (it started as Time Machine 2...)

with the goals:

be the "same" as original TSB (traditional-style), but better,

make new plays,

maintain the "chess-match/mind-game" of picking plays,

implement hacks - mainly HP, PA, Quickness

make a solid rom for both MAN and COM play.

...anyways

On the other hand, I'm interested in the "weird" stuff you guys are doing - [TSB is becoming a different game - mainly for the loss of the play-picking.]

Personally, I'd like to continue to make "traditional" TSB roms, so that there's still the "mind-game" aspect to it (I think TSB is unique in that you can "pick an opponents play") - but somehow implement some of the new defensive formations/ideas you guys have come up with.

Any ideas on how to do this (maintain play-picking but have variable-formation defenses)? I think it is as important to keep the "traditional" TSB-style alive as you guys move the game to a more Madden-like simulation experience.

I had tons of strategy involved when I drafted out TSC's initial game play. A notebook of ideas and illustrations. After rehearsal every night, my buddy Dan and I would smoke butts in my kitchen and draft out ideas. Most of them I didn't think were possible until I either learned how to do it, or Jstout pointed me in the right direction, pinning-the-nail-on-the-donkey style. Layers and layers of game play logic thoughts, in not just a football sense, but how to 'best' manipulate TSB, and coupled with a lot of intoxication. I'll guarantee you I've coded this game less-sober more often than not. You can put money on that shit.

I'm pumped to check out new work from people...

I like stealing new functionality. :wink:

But seriously, after I'm done with v1.2, I plan to do a good once over the community ROMs out there and start writing down a list of shit that I want to scavenge. Bruddog, your ROM is sounding tasty. And you're doing some interesting things, XP.

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I don't understand why it's thought of as "blitz".

I think of it as "I called your play (I knew what you were going to do)" = you get shut down. The only way to implement "knowing what the other guy is going to run" in TSB is to make all the defense bum rush the show (or ball carrier) with using the so-called "blitz" bytes.

Like in real life, if you KNOW that a team is going to run the same play over and over, you will put the defense in a position to stop it. In TSB, that "position" is bum rush ball carrier.

I like it. It's a reward for being smart or a lucky guesser.

It's funny, because for as long as I've lived TSB, I've never quite understood the boost blitz. I get that maybe in a Defensive reaction (which aren't really even architecturally sound in having any actual rationale--although applicable, for sure) a few players come to the line and shoot towards the QB. But I've really never fully understood the mechanic / interest of a full-on out Berserk-style rush. I accept that my interest is a-typical, however.

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Any ideas on how to do this (maintain play-picking but have variable-formation defenses)? I think it is as important to keep the "traditional" TSB-style alive as you guys move the game to a more Madden-like simulation experience.

That can be done. I am about to do this and see what It'll be like. You're right, it is making the game more like a simulation. And it seems that w/o picked plays, if you're playing Man vs Com, it doesn't matter what defense you've created, the Com never picks the best one. The logic is simply just designed for guessing the play that you're using, and not choosing the best play to defend what you're using. It has not mattered which slot I've put defenses in for man vs com, as long as the com is not super juiced in some way, it not even close competition, or i have to put some type of blitz in for every play I make.

Now man vs man & coa mode have adjusted well to me when it comes simulation style defense. It forces you though to make 3 separate roms, which is not really bad because you can make all the changes you want to make that specific mode the best it can be. I am in a 3-way split when it comes to TSB. First, i'm in favor of simulation style defense for coa mode since you're not actually running the plays yourself. Secondly, make defenses weaker for man vs man play since man player can cover a lot of ground like bruddog mentioned. Third, use picked plays for man vs com like you said buck to keep the com as competitive as possible. Those picked plays hurt when com does it at the right time like when you're already backed up. I am going to put picked plays back in and see how they work out of a variety of formations, or if they work better in their original formation.

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I'm actually talking about 'picked plays' vs MAN...I would prefer not having to worry about picked plays vs COM - since it's random.

I'm trying to imagine a way to have different defensive formations based on slot (like you guys have been doing) but also keep the 'picked play' aspect.

So far, it doesn't seem like it would be any good. For example, say a guy is picking Pass-4 (dime) and offense picks Pass-4. Make the defense do the "bum rush", so the play is tough/impossible to run. Next time, defense picks Pass-4 (dime) but offense picks Pass-3. No bum-rush, but the defense lines up in dime and does whatever.

The thing is, if the offense sees "dime", but offense didn't pick Pass-4 - he knows he's gold...kinda takes away the pre-snap excitement.

:wink: I think that another way to do it is to use a certain defensive formation (always) against a certain offensive formation. But what the defense DOES (good/bad coverage, "bum rush", etc) depends on the play slot the defense picks.

An example using this scheme - any Shotgun play picked by the offense results in the defense lining up in Dime. But if offense picks Pass-4 and defense picks Pass-4, the defensive formation is Dime and the defense bum-rushes. Otherwise, if offense picks shotgun Pass-4 and defense picks "anything besides Pass-4", the defense lines up in Dime and does whatever.

What do you think about this?

That can be done. I am about to do this and see what It'll be like. You're right, it is making the game more like a simulation. And it seems that w/o picked plays, if you're playing Man vs Com, it doesn't matter what defense you've created, the Com never picks the best one. The logic is simply just designed for guessing the play that you're using, and not choosing the best play to defend what you're using. It has not mattered which slot I've put defenses in for man vs com, as long as the com is not super juiced in some way, it not even close competition, or i have to put some type of blitz in for every play I make.

Now man vs man & coa mode have adjusted well to me when it comes simulation style defense. It forces you though to make 3 separate roms, which is not really bad because you can make all the changes you want to make that specific mode the best it can be. I am in a 3-way split when it comes to TSB. First, i'm in favor of simulation style defense for coa mode since you're not actually running the plays yourself. Secondly, make defenses weaker for man vs man play since man player can cover a lot of ground like bruddog mentioned. Third, use picked plays for man vs com like you said buck to keep the com as competitive as possible. Those picked plays hurt when com does it at the right time like when you're already backed up. I am going to put picked plays back in and see how they work out of a variety of formations, or if they work better in their original formation.

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The thing is, if the offense sees "dime", but offense didn't pick Pass-4 - he knows he's gold...kinda takes away the pre-snap excitement.

I kept getting frustrated with that.

:wink: I think that another way to do it is to use a certain defensive formation (always) against a certain offensive formation. But what the defense DOES (good/bad coverage, "bum rush", etc) depends on the play slot the defense picks.

I think I understand what you mean now. This will enable a defensive variety and upgrade while still maintaining an original tsb feel to it. I agree with that solution. Using your example to make sure I understood, If offense picks a shotgun pass & defense picks a running play, use dime w/poor coverage; If offense picks a shotgun pass & defense picks any other pass play, use dime w/better coverage; If offense picks a shotgun pass & defense picks exact play, then bum rush.

If I understood you correctly, this would actually be easier to implement than the stuff I've been working on. Right under my very nose. 8)

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I think I understand what you mean now. This will enable a defensive variety and upgrade while still maintaining an original tsb feel to it. I agree with that solution. Using your example to make sure I understood, If offense picks a shotgun pass & defense picks a running play, use dime w/poor coverage; If offense picks a shotgun pass & defense picks any other pass play, use dime w/better coverage; If offense picks a shotgun pass & defense picks exact play, then bum rush.

If I understood you correctly, this would actually be easier to implement than the stuff I've been working on. Right under my very nose. :wink:

My thoughts are that I see this as being way harder than easier in the long run. And that you're taking actual choice away from players. "What if I don't want to run Dime?"

Adversely, I do agree, I think it's a smart idea, and is more in line with the original programming if you really observe the original defensive architecture.

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To me, the point is primarily cosmetic. As far as I can tell, for MAN v MAN, it's a small field, the original 3-4 defense can do about everything you need with the right coding. So, to make it 'look cool' (always good) you add-in the variety defense.

You're right - the offensive formation would dictate the defensive formation...this can be used to the offenses advantage (use a playbook of certain formations) for different matchups. Because, there will be small differences in the line-up of your star defensive player - like your LB is further back or your FS is closer to LOS.

..."way-harder than easier" than what?

My thoughts are that I see this as being way harder than easier in the long run. And that you're taking actual choice away from players. "What if I don't want to run Dime?"

Adversely, I do agree, however, that this is more like original TSB. :wink:

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