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Attribute Changes


Bad Moon Rison

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I'm trying to create a ROM for personal use and have been throwing these questions up for a long time:

I was just curious what attributes you thought needed to be altered from TSB III to make it a lot more realistic and a lot more challenging (without being ridiculous).

I think HP needs to be lowered, and it seems like I've heard this from a lot of other people lately. It seems like fullbacks can break runs easily if not hit at the line.

It also seems Quickness affects reaction time, esp. with the CPU, so I thought maybe increasing these stats might lead to a more challenging game.

WHat do u guys think?

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I'm not real positive what would make it more accurate, but to make one aspect close: DROP ROD WOODSON'S NUMBERS!! I mean, good God! How the hell one man can do what he does through a whole game is beyond me, but i do know he must've blew some Tecmo reps to get the kind of love he gets in this game.

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I'm trying to create a ROM for personal use and have been throwing these questions up for a long time:

I was just curious what attributes you thought needed to be altered from TSB III to make it a lot more realistic and a lot more challenging (without being ridiculous).

I think HP needs to be lowered, and it seems like I've heard this from a lot of other people lately. It seems like fullbacks can break runs easily if not hit at the line.

It also seems Quickness affects reaction time, esp. with the CPU, so I thought maybe increasing these stats might lead to a more challenging game.

WHat do u guys think?

Lower overall maximum speeds for everyone. When some player (esp. a RB has a MS over 60, they are pretty impossible to stop in the hands of a good player.

Lower HP is good.

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I thought about increasing INT, since only certain players seem to get them.

As far as HP goes, what do you think is the highest any player should have? I'm thinking 50 is the limit.

I think the MS speed thing wouldn't be a problem if you increasing Quickness though. The CPU would take less time standing there, and rush to the play, making it harder to run in general (for both MAN and COM).

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Had 4 picks in 94 and returned them for 2 tds as well as 8 picks in 1993. He also returned punts and kicks and was a tackle master. The guy was voted to the all-time NFL team and came off the season where he would be at the peak of his knowledge and ability before Barry Sanders tore his ACL. Maybe I'm biased, but I'm guessing he's that good because he was that good.

I'm not real positive what would make it more accurate, but to make one aspect close: DROP ROD WOODSON'S NUMBERS!! I mean, good God! How the hell one man can do what he does through a whole game is beyond me, but i do know he must've blew some Tecmo reps to get the kind of love he gets in this game.
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Yes, but does that mean he's got to be the only one in the entire game with G/Rod-like qualities? And why all around? That man alone wins games for that team, and i know i'm ranting to the wong person (this should be reserved for my opponent) but that's not a proper way to gauge a team. It really hurts us in the TCS because we play in the preseason, so he never gets injured (and if he does he doesn't stay that way for weeks). It's gotten so that in my half of play with the team i don't even use him because i think it's an unfair advantage when no other team has a guy like this. It be different if he was like 'all-world' and could be used by every team during the week. But, like the question i put to my opponent, do you honestly believe Pittsburgh would be as good as they are without him??

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There are several DBs with Rod like qualities including Darren Woodson, Eric Turner, and Henry Jones among others. They aren't all around as good as Rod but they weren't in real life either. They do make excellent run/pass stoppers and kick returners.

What kind of rules do you have on this thing? Honestly, if there was one player on the Steelers you can't afford to lose it's Bam Morris. He's a monster and their real offense. If you lose Rod you still have Greene, Lloyd, and Darren Perry who each would be the best defender on a lot of teams.

What team would be as good as they are without their best player? Really, the team you should be looking at are the Colts. They are not only the 4th best team in the league, but they are either the 3rd or 4th best team in the AFC East. That team is Marshall Faulk and nothing else. I would have to say this entire process is flawed if they are the 4th best team. Match them up vs. the Bills. Faulk is the only better player and he is marginally better than Thurmal. The Bills have Bruce Smith, Bennett, and Henry Jones on D. Who do the Colts have?

The whole process seems flawed unless you are going to play a lot of games and you can say that you are all equally skilled. If you ranked them by player/teams strength then played games with the closely ranked teams to determine tie breakers, that's another story.

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I don't want to get into the "God or Rod" debate, but I will mention that G/Rod is the only CPU returner to get a kickoff runback against me - twice in the same game. 8O

About attribute changes, it seems everyone is saying that the game is overly offense, with too many big plays. Maybe you could change attributes in small, systematic ways to judge the effects, like:

- drop MS one unit for all RBs

- increase HP one unit for all LBs

- increase Quickness and Int. one unit each for all DBs

- increase CO and AR one unit each for all QBs (to reduce bad decisions).

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I think dropping HP for RBs is better than increasing it for LBs. Here's why:

If you have a LB with 19 HP and a RB with 19 HP, he is more likely to bring the guy down than a LB with 100 HP and a RB with 100 HP. I believe that the higher the HP goes, the greater the advantage the COM has. Theoretically, 19/19 and 100/100 would both equal 1, but I don't think it takes into account how hard your thumb has to work. 8O

The categories kork is looking at are the probably most notorious categories in deciding how to make things more fair and challenging at the same time. I'm not sure if one notch up or down is going to do it though.

How does RP come into play with RBs? This attribute still baffles me. I thought it was how well the player switched direction, but I'm not sure if this is the case in TSB III.

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It doesn't really matter where the rant goes as far as support for Rod is concerned. I'll forever be a part of the "I Hate Rod in Tecmo" club. I didn't found the club, i just joined. Eight members as far as i know. Regardless of the hype anyone gives him, bottom line is he doesn't deserve the numbers he gets in TSBIII. There ain't another DB in there (Darren, Eric & Henry included) you can stick in as KR/PR and do what Rod does. Try it sometime. What Rod does in Tecmo is bullshit. I usually end up using Perry, Lake or Figures (mostly Figures) and you know what? Most teams would be crying to have them alone. Never said Bam wasn't an intregral part, he obviously is. The Steelers' rushing way surpasses their passing. Unless somebody with balls comes on and throws forever. You're missing my point. I'm not here to dis Rod the man. I'm saying Rod the Tecmo player is too fuckin' ridiculous.

And saying the Colts are just Marshall Faulk obviously indicates you have never used (and i can't believe i'm saying this) Craig Erickson to his potential. The Colts have similar numbers across the board. Obviously they're getting the job done, regardless of playing style. Pairing up equal teams in Tecmo? Is that possible??

Playing styles aside, we all believe we have enough experience and are as good as each other. Most of us have 14 years under our belts. Tecmo is the scales here. Why else do you think we swap? If we were to take it as far as suggested, where would the fun in the game be? It's competitive enough as it is. The point is to take (keep this in mind) Tecmo teams and find out what Tecmo thinks are the teams' ranking using our playing styles. Which might i add are the only ones that matter since we're the only ones playing here.

All that aside, it still seems a role i have to fill is 'mediator'. Typically one or two of my opponents will do as stated; use the 'resource' available (i.e., Bam/Marshall). But my style involves more of a balanced offense, and i can run the quick outs better than most of my peers. Most believe the only reason San Diego is good is because Stan & his receivers will only perform for me, but i think it's just a matter of timing. As with lots of other teams. Instead of waiting until a guy is 50 yards downfield (like lots of Tecmoers like to do) then throwing the bomb, i usually let the receiver get....say, 7 yards into his pattern and let it go. With San Diego especially, you will always connect with Seay. It works best with passers who have higher PS. This same method works with the Colts. But if not for my style, no one would know because my opponents usually ground Faulk into beef. They're of the same belief; he works so let's use him up. This explains the 'psychic' ability. It ain't hard to pick a play when you know it's going to be a run 3/4 of the time. But it's tough to pick the same when someone is balancing the playbook.

Rank the teams by skill. Hmmmm. Why? Does the NFL do this? Where would the sense be in playing a full on schedule of every team if we took extra time to rank them? Thanx, but no. We'd rather waste our time playing then sorting numbers out. At least most of us would. We'd rather the numbers just present themselves after the games. Besides, we're going to be at least 60 before all the seasons we have due to be played get played anyway (at the rate we're going).

I'm a firm believer in the "D wins games" philosophy. The stats have proven this so. But a 'good' D the Bills have not. Bennett? Glaciers move faster. Bruce? You'd use this man in a game vs another MAN? He'd better be playing with the Jets (and be 8 years old). Try that shit on most other QBs & WRs in the league. Or worse yet, RBs. Either our carts differ, or time has slowed to see these guys that fast. It would appear (in TSBIII anyway) that the use of any of the front lineman (LBs included) would ring disaster for you in vs MAN mode. I can't remember exactly how long it's been since any of us tried. No one has the balls to try that crazy shit when they know the CPU players will foolishly leave WRs open like they always do (even in the Dime). Or worse yet will just 'escort' RBs wherever they're trying to go.

I need to take a break.

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I had a point by point reply that was negated by computer problems. 8O

Oh well, the important stuff.

If you don't want your ratings critiqued, you've come to the wrong place. I'm not questioning your Tecmo abilities, I'm questioning your methods. SF should always beat the Jets given equal players. However, it's possible to lose this game if you're fumbling/having plays called/bad karma. Have you accounted for fluke games? Maybe you just haven't played enough games to have the standings reflect closer to the rankings one might expect.

If you play every team with the Colts and the Bills, the Bills should win more games. The offenses are reasonably equal with the Colts having the edge in rushing and the Bills having the edge in passing. The Bills D is superior to the Colts though. The Colts don't have a top 10 player at any position. The Bills have 3 in Smith, Bennett, and Jones. Bennett is fast. He's one of the fastest LBs in the game. It's suicide to rush the qb with Smith but he will break through on his own given you don't chuck the ball in 2 seconds. Jones is badass as well. The Colts have Coryatt and Alberts plus semi speedy DBs that max out at 31 hp. You're telling me that you only use DBs and aren't completely demolished by any RBs with 50 or over hitting power against the Colts?

About only using DBs: You claim it's crazy to try and rush the QB yet isn't it also crazy to assume that there will only be one open receiver? I find that occasionally blitzing with a LB will cause a QB to throw errant passes if he's on the run, and give you the occasional tip or sack. Choose your poison on D but just like you can exploit a blitzing LB you can exploit a DB who has to cover two guys.

Either way, some good debate... :D

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I had a point by point reply that was negated by computer problems
- I can relate.

Oh no, i'm here for the critiquing. What goes on can be construed as the "Any Given Sunday" Rule, which is further exploited by Tecmo (more so in III) by spin moves, "Superstar" receptions, and leaping. Yes, we're taking it into account. Yes, there are talks about playing every game at least twice to try and rule out crap like that. But as stated before, we wanna play something other than Tecmo occasionally, and further seasons are in the works. Fluke games seem to occur twice a week around here (see Crazy Finishes thread).

The Bills do having some passing highs, but also some lows. And our Bennett just doesn't seem fast. But once again, it seems for us to be close to suicidal to try someone up front when we'd rather watch the play develop from the rear. We rarely try the dudes up front, if ever (with III).

But as far as the one open receiver....No. It's hardly ever just one. And besides, the CPU would love us to throw to Double Covered Stationary Man and make a catch anyway. That usually happens. Since we usually use the best DB, we have to stay in coverage to help INT chances (i'm working a theory on that however....).

No, RBs don't usually tear me up, unless they go on a spin/leap binge. But there are hassles when doing this, i admit.

Yeah. Good points all around! 8O

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I'm trying to create a ROM for personal use and have been throwing these questions up for a long time:

I was just curious what attributes you thought needed to be altered from TSB III to make it a lot more realistic and a lot more challenging (without being ridiculous).

I think HP needs to be lowered, and it seems like I've heard this from a lot of other people lately. It seems like fullbacks can break runs easily if not hit at the line.

It also seems Quickness affects reaction time, esp. with the CPU, so I thought maybe increasing these stats might lead to a more challenging game.

WHat do u guys think?

All I know is that if you are going to lower HP proportionally then you aren't really going to do anything. If you are going to raise the HP of the linebackers then lineman are going to go bouncing like crazy. If you lower the HP of the running backs you lose the Bam Morris/Jerome Bettis style runner. I say leave it alone, ROMS were meant to be played the way they were set up. I have yet to see a modified ROM better than the original when the settings were changed to wackiness.

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Hmm... Rod too good?

I just dont see it, however it could be the style of Defense I play.

My defense is generally composed of the 3-4 and I usually get burnt by the run. Therefore I have to key run so I call base D for personnel, then audible to the GL nearly every down. So I play OLB or SS Blitz on all passes very sucessfully. (Lloyd, Lake, or Greene) Usually If I get a pick, its not Rod, Its Perry or Lake on the Nickel and Dime.

Rod on Kick Returns, he does score a lot, but so Does Deion.

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All I know is that if you are going to lower HP proportionally then you aren't really going to do anything. If you are going to raise the HP of the linebackers then lineman are going to go bouncing like crazy. If you lower the HP of the running backs you lose the Bam Morris/Jerome Bettis style runner. I say leave it alone, ROMS were meant to be played the way they were set up. I have yet to see a modified ROM better than the original when the settings were changed to wackiness.

My point is to try and cripple those types of runners. Bam Morris and Jerome Bettis are comparable to Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith, which probably isn't very accurate. That's because their HP is too high. If there was a somewhat uniform system, then it could work. TSB III plays different than the other TSBs. From my experience, it never was any good changing those other TSBs too much, but TSB III feels like it could be worked out.

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but so Does Deion.

This could be true. sao, how do you get to use Deion? Do you go through the weeks of free agency before you start play? I've wanted to do that but never have. Yet. There was talk of using the FA period to get the players on teams that should've been there, but then we decided to let them lie and use what was there so we could get rolling.

Most of Pittsburgh's secondary gets INTs for us. Granted, i do think it's a dead heat between Lake & Rod, but there is Rod. Which i still think good because that's typically the player my opponent uses and there has been a great many times that Rod has been out of position due to different coverages by a MAN player.

My 'project' pertains to this. I've been kinda trying to work this during the season, but it's hard to keep results and even harder to stick to when you're trying to win. Is it better to NOT be the best guy in the secondary/anywhere so as not to take away from that players' abilities? I guess what that translates out to is: can the CPU run the better players better than a MAN can? Whoever/wherever he is, he is going to run his set pattern. Does being that guy create a flaw in the pattern if you choose him to free-lance? This is not to say you're not going to do what is needed to stop the opposing team, but are you screwing with the dynamics of it? If one of those guys could/would get INTs if you weren't being said guy, would it be you who were the detriment? It sounds lengthier than it is. And in the end, you can't really tell if you've found the answer anyway. But i deem it an interesting theory.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm glad I was referred to this post! I also do not like to change Tecmo attributes, but would like to make a challenging 1 player game. Here are some changes I made. Let me know if you agree or disagree. These are based on TSBIII.

1. The COM can run better off the line and avoid initial tackles better than any MAN control. So I lowered MS of the running backs so at least you can catch up to them quicker.

2. The MAN controller can break tackles better than COM because of the A button and because of using a zig zag manuever when in front of the pack. Lower HP and MS counter this.

3. I also lowered the MS on receivers because they usually catch a pass in front of the pack and can zig zag there way to ans easy TD. However, COM is very bad at timing a pass and finding the open receiver, so this hinders their passing game. Still needs a tweak.

4. Once I lowered the MS of receivers and running backs, if the defense intercepts a ball they can easily run it back for a TD. To counter this, I increased the MS of the OL to counter this. It seems to work pretty well and who cares if an OL is really fast anyways.

5. With the slowness of play it also seemed to work best on 7 minute quarters to build up and let up enough yardage to keep things competitive.

I didn't mess with the defense because offense on MAN is too easy already.

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Nameless Loser has a point. Have you ever seen a lineman recover a fumble? They run like crazy, and their high HP usually swats most players like houseflies.

In response to #3 on bigdee's list, I believe the secret to that might be in increasing the RP of receivers to counter the lowered max speed. That way, they get a good jump off the ball (which the computer benefits from), but is still limited by a lowered max speed.

I agree with #1 and #2.

I've found the problem with 7 min quarters is not the problem in building stats, but that scores tend to be on the high side (esp. if fumbles and blocked kicks occur a lot). I always thought 6 would be ideal to balance it, but there are no 6 min quarters in TSB III. :twisted: It might work out a little better when you lower speed though.

Do you do anything to QBs?

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I never thought about the onside kick and the lineman. I didn't boost MS too much. I think I raised everyone by 3 times(using TSB Manager 3). I haven't noticed the onsides runbacks for TD's but I don't use the onsides much either.

Off Lineman highest MS = 69 highest HP = 81

I'll try to increase the receivers RP and see what it does. If I get it right, it will make them faster off the start but the lower MS should stop them from getting a one play TD.

As far as the 7 min quarters, the scores seem ok with the lower MS, I seldom get a game with more than 40 pts for any team. Usually if a team does score 40, its a lobsided win (40-14, 42-7). The blocked punts are almost nonexistant with the higher avoid block settings. Also, fumbles are not as common due to the higher ball control, I had to set some players at 100 for this. To add, it seems that fumbles occur more often when a player is dive tackled.

As far as QB's are concerned, I gave them the exact abilities of players from TSB 2. They seem pretty good.

One thing I'd laike to add is that I lowered all receivers(TE, RB and WR) reception ability by 3 settings. This is because catches are made too often in traffic.

Any ideas on how to counter the computers horrific passing game? Maybe there is a set of plays to use for every team that the computer has a better percentage of completing the passes. Although with increased quarters the passing stats are better for COM

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Off Lineman highest MS = 69 highest HP = 81

Wow, 81 is very high, I'd have a tough time breaking through with a DLineman.

I'll try to increase the receivers RP and see what it does. If I get it right, it will make them faster off the start but the lower MS should stop them from getting a one play TD.

That is what I think would make the game a lot better and even possibly help out COM receptions. If you are using SBlueman's ROM, I think he had a default speed for these, I'm not sure. It might also make sense to change the MS and RP of cornerbacks as well in the opposite manner (i.e.-decrease RP, increase MS).

Also, fumbles are not as common due to the higher ball control, I had to set some players at 100 for this.

Can they fumble at 100?

To add, it seems that fumbles occur more often when a player is dive tackled.

There are many theories to what causes a fumble, with no definite ultimate conclusion. I personally believe the more you resist a grapple, th greater the likelihood. Who knows...

As far as QB's are concerned, I gave them the exact abilities of players from TSB 2. They seem pretty good.

What do you mean by TSB 2 attributes? Are they any different than TSB 3? I'm not familiar with TSB 2 enough to know. :twisted:

One thing I'd laike to add is that I lowered all receivers(TE, RB and WR) reception ability by 3 settings. This is because catches are made too often in traffic.

I don't know why people do that. I wholeheartedly believe that catching in traffic doesn't happen enough! The other TSBs (especially TSB I for the SNES), the receivers will almost always catch in traffic. If you have two guys covering you in TSB III, I hardly ever see the guy make the catch, unless it's a jump ball.

Any ideas on how to counter the computers horrific passing game? Maybe there is a set of plays to use for every team that the computer has a better percentage of completing the passes. Although with increased quarters the passing stats are better for COM

The computer makes poor decisions and it is hard to correct. I would suggest perhaps fiddling around with the QBs' Avoid Rush or Coolness attributes. Who knows. I have also been thinking that the COM likes to pass more to the bottom receiver. Perhaps putting the receiver with better Receptions will help increase the COM's completion % and yardage.

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Thanks for all the input! I'll respond one by one:

As far as breaking through the line with a defensive lineman you are correct it is hard to. I always set my best player at the top or bottom and 'run around' the opposing OL to get at the quarterback. I never try to break through the line.

I understand what MS does and I see it on the field, but I'm not so sure what RP does. The manual says 'starting power of a players dash'. I thought this is kind of like HP where you can win a grapple easier.

I still see fumbles but not as many. I had to set some at 100(99 with tsb 3 manager) because I raised every player accordingly to keep FA points in sync. I cant tell for sure if someone with 100 ever fumbles, but I do see fumbles. Actually it seems that the quarterback is most likely to fumble. This is probably because you cannot set BC on quarterbacks. However, I am very pleased with less fumbles, it just occurs too much in TSB 3.

BC for RB: 63-99

BC for WR: 63-99

BC for TE: 56-88

(remember that most back up players have the lower abilities)

Yes TSB2 attributes are set differently than TSB3. There is no BB in TSB2 and the game plays differently as well. I always felt TSB2 more realistic, thats why I imported those stats to TSB3. I think agility is set lowered as well.

I have to disagree with the catching in traffic. First off the thing I hate most about TSB3 is the 'lob' pass. You can easily throw for 100 yards and have your ace receiver catch it with 3-4 men on him. Lowering the receptions helps, but I have some receivers set at 13 for Receptions and they can still make a covered pass. I dont mind if the reciever is still running or dives to make the catch, but when the receiver and defensive end are both 'waiting' for the pass and the receiver continually catches the ball its frustrating - even if its me making the completion! Lowering RE on receivers and running backs works out ok.

I think this is the big difference between TSB2 and TSB3. It is harder to make catches in TSB2, however the computer is even worse at completing passes. I believe Tecmo revamped the passing game in TSB3 to counter this. The result? Too easy to complete passes for a MAN controller.

What exactly does coolness do? I understand in theory but its hard to see on the field. I don't believe that raising it will help the opposing QB throw to the open reciever, or does it?

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